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Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

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Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#181

Post by dfxm12 »

baron816 wrote: post #153
dfxm12 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you already enjoy many benefits already brought about by unions that you did not pay dues for, like weekends off, ending child labor, 40 hr work week, 8 hr work day, benefits around health care, unemployment and more.

Unions have also perpetuated racism, sexism, xenophobia, organized crime, government corruption, etc. It’s not all sunshine and lollipops. America abandoned unions for a reason.

America abandoned unions for a reason.

It's been a concerted effort of corporate capitalists: buying & influencing media outlets, lobbying, offshoring, etc.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#182

Post by bluGill »

lapcat wrote: post #75
alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

> Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. No, thi…

Unions exist in other fields. They work best when quality is uniform and expertise counts for little. That doesn't mean they do not work when quality is not uniform and expertise matters, just that they don't work nearly as well.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#183

Post by kdmccormick »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #48
kdmccormick wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO our profession's adherence to ethics and technical standards is shockingly low compared to others. If a civil engineer was asked to build a bridge that will probably be unsafe, I think they and their colleagues would have the power to refuse (right?). If a software engineer is asked to ship a feature that's probably insecure then... IDK, gotta get it to prod, move fast and break things, right? I wonder if unioni…

A whole lot of software just supports a business, and a non-critical business at that. If my buggy software takes down, say, pets.com, well, first, the world won't end because pets.com is down for 8 hours, and second, pets.com wasn't going to succeed even if my software was perfect. That kind of software isn't like building a bridge; it's more like building a birdhouse. Nobody's going to die if it collapses. (OK, a b…

Sure, but if pets.com has a database breach and leaks PII, that could be used to help break into someone's email or bank.

I think a more apt analogy would be a pothole. It's probably OK, until it grows deep enough that someone hits it hard and veers into the sidewalk or the opposite lane.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#184

Post by lapcat »

zaphar wrote: post #107

I don't know whether we deserve a union or not. I do know that I emphatically do not want or need one. I make the amount of money I need. I have my pick of jobs if I feel undervalued by the place I work. Under no circumstances do I want to be forced to pay dues into a union that is unlikely to represent me in the company or politically. Since I have no need or desire there is no reason for me to consider the question…

> I make the amount of money I need.

It's not just about money. Working conditions are equally important.

Consider when companies demand that everyone RTO after promising permanent WFH. Consider when companies rescind offer letters after you've already quit your old job. Consider mass layoffs and severance.

I think about how so many engineers need to take a long, unpaid break from work after leaving their jobs, because they've been burned out by their former employer.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#185

Post by nonethewiser »

pjc50 wrote: post #167
abigail95 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have very very heavy lifting to do if you're trying to prove a productivity improvement leads to a worse outcome. Farming automation and the green revolution didn't make us all unemployed - it meant 90% of us could do something else instead of farming. We used the productivity to just invent new forms of work that weren't possible and aren't possible in a lower productivity economy.

Outcome for whom, though? We can use fancy words like "Pareto" or we can argue that it doesn't matter if a productivity improvement gives a billionaire more toys if everyone else is experiencing smaller houses and a worse public environment.

> Outcome for whom, though?

Everyone who is not a slave, serf, or subsistence farmer

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#186

Post by AmericanChopper »

Aurornis wrote: post #114
alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

This nuance is missing from most discussions about unions in tech; People have a high-level idea that unions have increased wages and improved working conditions in other industries and they’ve made a crude extrapolation that a tech union would therefore give them them more money and fewer working hours. All with no downsides or strings attached! A more accurate mental model is to understand a union as trading some (…

Many tech workers already effectively have made the salary compromises required by collective bargaining. That’s what salary bands are. Those who think they’re worth more than that become contractors, while the FTEs mistakenly think they’re getting paid the same as everybody else and sleep well at night imagining they have more job security than the contractors do. Creating actual unions won’t change much. The suckers will still self-select into getting paid less, and will be very happy to do so.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#187

Post by dxdm »

baron816 wrote: post #153
dfxm12 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you already enjoy many benefits already brought about by unions that you did not pay dues for, like weekends off, ending child labor, 40 hr work week, 8 hr work day, benefits around health care, unemployment and more.

Unions have also perpetuated racism, sexism, xenophobia, organized crime, government corruption, etc. It’s not all sunshine and lollipops. America abandoned unions for a reason.

> have also perpetuated racism, sexism, xenophobia, organized crime, government corruption,

The same is true for political parties, religious organizations, and all sorts of other organizations that are made of people, including privately owned companies. Which of these concepts would you like to abandon, and what do you propose should be their replacement?

What you say is an argument for balancing power, not for concentrating it.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#188

Post by jhgfjhgfjhfgjhg »

itsoktocry wrote: post #34
alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

> The best engineers are worth literally 10x the worst engineers Uh, I'm pretty sure the best employees in any field are worth 10x what the worst employees are, whether you're writing code, assembling a car or gutting fish. The economics of labour suggest unions are most valuable where there's a monopsony buyer of labour. Big Tech might fit that bill, especially when we know they colluded to depress salaries.

You would depress the wages of 10x engineers with unions. Look at teacher unions for an example.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#189

Post by jandrewrogers »

infinitezest wrote: post #94
jandrewrogers wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> realize they've been working for 20 years and getting nowhere How are you defining "getting nowhere"? At least in the US, the average software developer eventually becomes a millionaire working a pretty cushy job with good benefits. Most people in unions wish they could be exploited like software engineers. Any bar set so high in defining worker exploitation that a software engineer can't clear the hurdle is not a…

Do you have a source for the claim of the average software engineer becomes a millionaire? As a software engineer I would really like for you to be correct.

There are no definitive studies but reports I've seen suggest the typical software developer these days crosses that threshold about 20 years into their career. Something like 80% of all millionaires in the US are so due to 401k + savings, which is something software developers are exceptionally well positioned to easily take advantage of.

I know several non-software people in boring industries that managed to accumulate $1M in their retirement accounts by the age of 50 while living a non-austere lifestyle and making less money than the average software developer. It isn't that hard to do in the US. Anyone making above average wages with decent savings discipline can do it, the financial math makes that obvious.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#190

Post by afavour »

abigail95 wrote: post #157
randy5235 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you feel that a union wouldn’t represent your interests? Do you really believe that corporations will continue paying us well any longer than they absolutely have to? As soon as an ai or low code split comes along that can replace junior and mid level engineers, those jobs will get harder and harder to find. The rest of us will have to shoulder the responsibility of “cleaning” after those solutions and the…

You have very very heavy lifting to do if you're trying to prove a productivity improvement leads to a worse outcome. Farming automation and the green revolution didn't make us all unemployed - it meant 90% of us could do something else instead of farming. We used the productivity to just invent new forms of work that weren't possible and aren't possible in a lower productivity economy.

“Technology will free us from a life of drudgery!” has been the promise for what, over a hundred years now? We all sit around at our leisure while robots prepare our dinner.

What actually happened in agriculture is that technology enabled massive conglomerates to dominate the industry. I see few guarantees that technological progress is going to free me up to do something else that enriches my life.

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