Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#171

Post by dartos » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:16 PM UTC

itsoktocry wrote: post #34

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

> The best engineers are worth literally 10x the worst engineers Uh, I'm pretty sure the best employees in any field are worth 10x what the worst employees are, whether you're writing code, assembling a car or gutting fish. The economics of labour suggest unions are most valuable where there's a monopsony buyer of labour. Big Tech might fit that bill, especially when we know they colluded to depress salaries.

Specifically in the software development field, a good engineer increases the productivity of all other engineers in a way that allows engineers to increase the productivity of each other in a compounding way.

A “10x” engineer is worth a compounding amount more than their peers.

I don’t think that holds for every field.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#172

Post by bluGill » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:16 PM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #133

pydry wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions add the same kind of value whether you're writing a Hollywood screenplay or assembling a Tesla because you have the same relationship to capital either way. The same divide/conquer tactic was done 100 years ago when owners of mines in Pennsylvania pitted white and black miners against each other. The actual distinction doesn't matter to the owners provided it divides labor. Anything that makes you feel special…

Do I have the same relationship to capital? A miner’s relationship to capital seems pretty plausibly adversarial to me: capital buys a bunch of tools and shafts and scaffolding, asks miners to use them to pull coal out of the ground, then pays the miners a fraction of what the coal sells for. My relationship with capital is that rich investors send money to my company’s bank account and they forward it directly to my…

There is value in an investor paying for the shafts and scaffolding. The investor also takes the risk that coal prices will fall (eventually the miner is laid off, but the investor takes a lot of the risk)

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#173

Post by pjc50 » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:16 PM UTC

Clubber wrote: post #149

pjc50 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true; I myself have had a below-inflation pay rise and some colleagues made redundant. I'm still paid more than 95% of people in my country . What that highlights is just how bad the inequality curve really is, that the 0.1% right on one edge have exceptional power to make decisions which make the rest worse off. What this means is that any tech union is going to have to extend a bit of solidarity out to lowe…

>I'm still paid more than 95% of people in my country. What makes you think you aren't worth much, much more? What would happen to your company if all the tech people went on vacation for a month? CEO's don't think, "We make more than 95% of businesses in our industry, I guess we can relax now." We have to act like the CEO of our careers. Also, most tech workers in the US aren't in the top 5% of earners. Unless you a…

> most tech workers aren't in the top 5% of earners

No, I really did check https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/percentile-points-f... before posting that stat.

(I guess this is where Americans start discovering how badly paid the UK as a whole is)

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#174

Post by zaphar » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:17 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #117

zaphar wrote: post #107

I don't know whether we deserve a union or not. I do know that I emphatically do not want or need one. I make the amount of money I need. I have my pick of jobs if I feel undervalued by the place I work. Under no circumstances do I want to be forced to pay dues into a union that is unlikely to represent me in the company or politically. Since I have no need or desire there is no reason for me to consider the question…

> I have my pick of jobs if I feel undervalued by the place I work Definitely something that is in no danger of changing at any point in the future! What a relief for all of us! We already have ample evidence that tech giants colluded to depress the salaries of their workers. I can understand being wary of unions but to suggest they’d provide absolutely nothing feels like a failure of imagination.

Software engineer is not the only job I've every had. I've been the janitor sweeping floors, I've been the guy on the assembly line. I've literally supported my family by working day labor with no certainty of continued employment. I have always been able to find a place and prove myself worthy of the pay without sacrificing my health, or family time. I've quit jobs when I no longer felt like it was the right place for me.

I don't think it's anyone's responsibility but mine to ensure that I can provide for my family. I have all the self-dignity I need to stand up for myself and my family. I have built the support structures I need to survive rocky periods. None of what I've done is out of reach for anyone else. So yes, I think a certain amount of self-responsibility and self-reliance is good for you. I don't buy into the idea the most important dynamic is relative power between employees who may or may not share my values and an employer.

Instead I buy into the idea that self-respect, self-reliance and community support structur is far more important and I would rather focus on that than trying to balance the power dynamic at a particular workplace.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#175

Post by mc32 » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:18 PM UTC

lapcat wrote: post #75

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

> Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. No, thi…

Sports are not typical businesses. You can’t just start a team and hire union workers. Current owner management need to vote on expansion (this is a simplification) it’s an artificial situation.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#176

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:18 PM UTC

mmmmmbop wrote: post #80

bazooka wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hot take. It’s also untrue. Software developers overall are not millionaires. I am discounting non-liquid assets like the main residence.

> I am discounting non-liquid assets like the main residence. That's pretty unusual. Do you consider someone with $1.5M but no house considerably better off than someone with $500k and a $1M house?

[deleted]

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#177

Post by kdmccormick » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:18 PM UTC

paulcole wrote: post #57

kdmccormick wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO our profession's adherence to ethics and technical standards is shockingly low compared to others. If a civil engineer was asked to build a bridge that will probably be unsafe, I think they and their colleagues would have the power to refuse (right?). If a software engineer is asked to ship a feature that's probably insecure then... IDK, gotta get it to prod, move fast and break things, right? I wonder if unioni…

Yeah great point. It’s like why does my doctor have to wash their hands before operating on me but my CPA doesn’t have to wash their hands before doing my taxes?

Cute analogy dude, but it's startling that you think that the negative impact of software engineers is as contained as a CPA typing on their keyboard with dirty hands.

Equifax leaked PII for over one third of the entire US. The stress and financial loss of identity theft can take years off of people's lives.

That's just the big example, but there are countless other smaller examples of bad security and other bugs harming people in tangible ways.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#178

Post by runako » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:18 PM UTC

_aavaa_ wrote: post #128

runako wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which not the way most people/postings talk about compensation. This is a tech site. People in tech routinely include the value of e.g. RSUs in compensation numbers. Point taken, but a) it's not too far afield from how tech comp is discussed and b) even if you back out the non-cash components, the drivers still make a lot of money. (Possibly more even than the median US software developer.)

I agree that things like RSUs are generally included, but the 50k of benefits does not include RSUs. The closest this they talk about is the pension plan, which they quote as 23k. Looks like UPS quotes above 95k avg, and 42$/hr avg after 4 years. I have no idea how that compares to average tech salary, but I agree that it is good money. That last thing worth mentioning, also from UPS' site is that almost half of thei…

> 50k of benefits

First cut at this would be $23k of pension, plus health insurance. (Average policy for a family of 4 is running around $25k; UPS may have a better plan than average.) It's fair for them to include these because comparable employers do not include either. (Though it make the compare to tech workers less direct.)

> almost half of their full-time drivers have been at the company for >15 years

There's a documented correlation between good benefits, low turnover, and higher profits.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#179

Post by Aurornis » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:19 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #117

zaphar wrote: post #107

I don't know whether we deserve a union or not. I do know that I emphatically do not want or need one. I make the amount of money I need. I have my pick of jobs if I feel undervalued by the place I work. Under no circumstances do I want to be forced to pay dues into a union that is unlikely to represent me in the company or politically. Since I have no need or desire there is no reason for me to consider the question…

> I have my pick of jobs if I feel undervalued by the place I work Definitely something that is in no danger of changing at any point in the future! What a relief for all of us! We already have ample evidence that tech giants colluded to depress the salaries of their workers. I can understand being wary of unions but to suggest they’d provide absolutely nothing feels like a failure of imagination.

> Definitely something that is in no danger of changing at any point in the future!

Then how about we cross that bridge when we get there rather than trying to optimize today’s situation for potential problems that might happen in the future?

> We already have ample evidence that tech giants colluded to depress the salaries of their workers.

And we already have evidence that the problem didn’t require a union to solve.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#180

Post by nonethewiser » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:19 PM UTC

abigail95 wrote: post #157

randy5235 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you feel that a union wouldn’t represent your interests? Do you really believe that corporations will continue paying us well any longer than they absolutely have to? As soon as an ai or low code split comes along that can replace junior and mid level engineers, those jobs will get harder and harder to find. The rest of us will have to shoulder the responsibility of “cleaning” after those solutions and the…

You have very very heavy lifting to do if you're trying to prove a productivity improvement leads to a worse outcome. Farming automation and the green revolution didn't make us all unemployed - it meant 90% of us could do something else instead of farming. We used the productivity to just invent new forms of work that weren't possible and aren't possible in a lower productivity economy.

> Farming automation and the green revolution didn't make us all unemployed - it meant 90% of us could do something else instead of farming.

There was actually a lot of fear that there would be mass starvation and competition for food because food production could not match population increase. It was an existential threat, much like how we look at global warming. And that fear today? Gone, and most people never even knew it existed.