Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#141

Post by baron816 » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:05 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #117

zaphar wrote: post #107

I don't know whether we deserve a union or not. I do know that I emphatically do not want or need one. I make the amount of money I need. I have my pick of jobs if I feel undervalued by the place I work. Under no circumstances do I want to be forced to pay dues into a union that is unlikely to represent me in the company or politically. Since I have no need or desire there is no reason for me to consider the question…

> I have my pick of jobs if I feel undervalued by the place I work Definitely something that is in no danger of changing at any point in the future! What a relief for all of us! We already have ample evidence that tech giants colluded to depress the salaries of their workers. I can understand being wary of unions but to suggest they’d provide absolutely nothing feels like a failure of imagination.

It will change if it becomes harder for companies to hire and fire people, or become less competitive.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#142

Post by RandomLensman » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:06 PM UTC

xeromal wrote: post #124

RandomLensman wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would a 10x engineer object to improved working conditions for all? Some general hatred for coworkers?

Because Union agreements can bind pay to non meritocratic ways such as time spent in the role or when a higher position opens up. Those top players will rise to the top easier in an open market. It's the same with waitstaff in a tip-based system. The bottom half wants fair wages while the top 20% will leave because they know they can earn without those rules in place.

First, that means there is an open, two-sided market and, second, citation needed that that is really the case. Btw., employers can and do also pay based on non-meritocratic KPIs (but depends on your definition of that term).

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#143

Post by dzikimarian » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:06 PM UTC

dfxm12 wrote: post #134

zaphar wrote: post #107

I don't know whether we deserve a union or not. I do know that I emphatically do not want or need one. I make the amount of money I need. I have my pick of jobs if I feel undervalued by the place I work. Under no circumstances do I want to be forced to pay dues into a union that is unlikely to represent me in the company or politically. Since I have no need or desire there is no reason for me to consider the question…

But you already enjoy many benefits already brought about by unions that you did not pay dues for, like weekends off, ending child labor, 40 hr work week, 8 hr work day, benefits around health care, unemployment and more.

I also enjoy miners union that influences politics in my country in ways I don't like.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#144

Post by bluGill » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:06 PM UTC

frant-hartm wrote: post #61

itsoktocry wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best engineers are worth literally 10x the worst engineers Uh, I'm pretty sure the best employees in any field are worth 10x what the worst employees are, whether you're writing code, assembling a car or gutting fish. The economics of labour suggest unions are most valuable where there's a monopsony buyer of labour. Big Tech might fit that bill, especially when we know they colluded to depress salaries.

If you are on an assembly line and you have 45 s to do your job you either do it, or don't. If you do it fast and wait for 40 s you don't add any value.

That depends on the assembly line. The assembly the car line works like that: you get 45 seconds (or whatever time) to put your part one, then the car moves to the next station.

However I know of assembly lines where things spend several hours at each station. The people (often as many as 10 people per station) all work together for that time putting different parts on. If you can do the job faster than the time in station you can take an extra break to do what you want. Such lines are generally planned so that if you work as expected you get a 20 minute break when the lines move, most teams work faster and get a 30 minute break, almost never does some team get less than the 20 minute break planned.

The car model assembly line is the most efficient, but it has high costs. When you make a lot of something it is well worth those costs, but if you are only expecting to sell 100 "things" per year it isn't worth setting up the line.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#145

Post by randy5235 » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:06 PM UTC

zaphar wrote: post #107

I don't know whether we deserve a union or not. I do know that I emphatically do not want or need one. I make the amount of money I need. I have my pick of jobs if I feel undervalued by the place I work. Under no circumstances do I want to be forced to pay dues into a union that is unlikely to represent me in the company or politically. Since I have no need or desire there is no reason for me to consider the question…

What makes you feel that a union wouldn’t represent your interests? Do you really believe that corporations will continue paying us well any longer than they absolutely have to? As soon as an ai or low code split comes along that can replace junior and mid level engineers, those jobs will get harder and harder to find. The rest of us will have to shoulder the responsibility of “cleaning” after those solutions and the additional work of not having a “pipeline” to continue growing better software engineers.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#146

Post by UncleMeat » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:07 PM UTC

jandrewrogers wrote: post #17

badcppdev wrote: post #6

I guess the trouble is that we don't have any self-admitted exploited workers. Everyone is a temporarily embarrassed Founder/CTO. With thanks to Steinback - https://hellyesjohnsteinbeck.tumblr.com/post/23486952183/com...

At least in the US, the average software developer does eventually become a millionaire, working a pretty cushy job. If that is "exploitation" then most people would be like to be exploited like that.

Yes, software engineers are paid very well as a class.

Google made $21b in income in Q2 of this year. That's more than $100,000 per employee. $400,000 in profit per employee per year. I'd sure like to get paid another 400 grand annually.

Exploitation can also happen in ways other than pay. 24/7 oncall is unfortunately common in our industry, including oncall that is unpaid.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#147

Post by pyreticRitual » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:07 PM UTC

nxm wrote: post #105

LtWorf wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A union would protect everyone. And nobody is saying that a senior engineer should get paid the same as a junior. You live under the impression that better workers will earn more. In practice the skill that earns higher salary is to pretend to be very competent by using jargon and parroting stuff.

Even the terrible developers that are a drain on the company and hence compensation? No thanks

Do terrible NBA players get to keep their jobs? The pithy response is to point at like, James Harden, but on the whole professional basketball is very meritocratic and yet they have a union.

Pro sports in general. Netflix said they run their company like a pro sports team, why not include that players have a union?

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#148

Post by lesuorac » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:07 PM UTC

alexb_ wrote: post #50

duxup wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a good example I should know about?

All police unions

The problem with a police union is that management (i.e. Captains + & Commissioners) are part of the union.

It'd be like if Gary Bettman ran the NHLPA.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#149

Post by Clubber » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:08 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #137

Clubber wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think we're still in such a good position relative to everyone else in society that it's difficult to see the need for collective bargaining. Corps have been pushing down wages for decades. Here's some methods: - Offshoring - Automation - Skeleton teams - Long hours - Removal of bonuses for anyone but managers - Removal of signing bonuses (this was a thing in the late 90s) - Recruiters posing mid level people as s…

This is true; I myself have had a below-inflation pay rise and some colleagues made redundant. I'm still paid more than 95% of people in my country . What that highlights is just how bad the inequality curve really is, that the 0.1% right on one edge have exceptional power to make decisions which make the rest worse off. What this means is that any tech union is going to have to extend a bit of solidarity out to lowe…

>I'm still paid more than 95% of people in my country.

What makes you think you aren't worth much, much more? What would happen to your company if all the tech people went on vacation for a month? CEO's don't think, "We make more than 95% of businesses in our industry, I guess we can relax now." We have to act like the CEO of our careers. Also, most tech workers in the US aren't in the top 5% of earners. Unless you are in a high position at a large company, you're probably top 15-25%. Might wanna check.

>Was it Napoleon who said "the graveyards are full of irreplaceable men"? Also true.

I remember Jobs saying it, but he was known for adopting other people's sayings.

>You can't just look "up" the curve at your salary getting ever higher. You have to look "down" as well, without contempt.

Yes, tech people's elitism isn't a beneficial trait. It's good when selling yourself, but once that's done, we should drop it.

FWIW, a tech union, if done right, would probably be the strongest union in history. Think Dune and Ix.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#150

Post by pjc50 » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:08 PM UTC

lr4444lr wrote: post #122

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

And those 20% won't even be compensated 2-3x higher under a union: likely just in lockstep with their years of service. A union might figure out a couple of tiers within the payscale for specialized or managerial work, but I expect those to be gamed as well by shrewd but mediocre people. Following up on what you say, the main reason for unions is to help labor extract more of the wealth they create. While I'm sure th…

> doctors should unionize to get a lockstep salary from the hospitals where they work

.. have you actually checked how much power the AMA has, even though they're not technically a "union"?

This year UK doctors went on strike against their monopsony employer because they were getting below-inflation pay rises: https://www.bma.org.uk/our-campaigns/junior-doctor-campaigns...