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Own-goal football (2022)

generalist.academy

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Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#71

Post by linhvn »

karmakurtisaani wrote: post #68

Adding to the discussion on the rules set in soccer, I've always found it bad design that the referee has only yellow and red cards for penalizing individual players. Especially the red card is a hard penalty, which leads to the referee having too much influence on the outcome, and to counter that, the referees don't like to give out cards too easily. Now, the consequence of that is for example that players fake inju…

If you fake injuries, or fall in the penalty area, you might get a yellow / red card. So no cheaties here, especially with VAR now in place.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#72

Post by cafard »

jbandela1 wrote: post #70
furyofantares wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also interesting is how lots of rules have standard penalties - and this turns them into potential strategic components rather than something you aren't allowed to do. It's not cheating to break these rules, it's considered part of the game.

Another example is pass interference in college football. It is a first down and 15 yards from the line of scrimmage. Thus if you are getting beat on a play, rather than potentially allowing 40 or 50 yards and a touchdown, it is better to blatantly pass interfere (tackle the receiver before they get the ball, etc).

Or, you might just manage it without the ref spotting it, as late in a recent Super Bowl.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#73

Post by cafard »

divan wrote: post #39
furyofantares wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also interesting is how lots of rules have standard penalties - and this turns them into potential strategic components rather than something you aren't allowed to do. It's not cheating to break these rules, it's considered part of the game.

Yeah, that's kinda expected. But what I'm more worried about in sports is when metrics(rules) become engrained in that sports culture and start shaping the sport itself. Like, if an athletics high-jump champion has to jump over a fence with concrete ground – would s/he be still the best in the world? Probably not, because they're focusing on the Fosberry flop technique which works only in a competition setting with a…

As far as I know, neither the high jump nor the pole vault ever had hard landing areas. I'm sure that foam rubber is a lot better than dried cow manure, but guys were still going way over 6' in the jump and 15' in the vault before foam rubber came along.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#74

Post by iainmerrick »

PaulHoule wrote: post #63
kevinmchugh wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relegation and promotion are just such good systems that all sports should have them

Frequently I get a bunch of free Giants gear around November because my friends who are Giants fans are disgusted with how they are playing and don't want to be seen in them. If the NFL had relegation this couldn't happen so chronically. On the other hand, promotion/relegation needs a big enough market to support multiple tiers. Amazingly, the UK has several layers of leagues that attract fans and seem to be economic…

I think it’s somewhat analogous to both NFL and college football being popular in the US. It’s incredible to me that people are so keen to watch college students play, but I hear it’s a pretty big deal.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#75

Post by kevinmchugh »

PaulHoule wrote: post #63
kevinmchugh wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relegation and promotion are just such good systems that all sports should have them

Frequently I get a bunch of free Giants gear around November because my friends who are Giants fans are disgusted with how they are playing and don't want to be seen in them. If the NFL had relegation this couldn't happen so chronically. On the other hand, promotion/relegation needs a big enough market to support multiple tiers. Amazingly, the UK has several layers of leagues that attract fans and seem to be economic…

I don't know that soccer in the US could support a promotion/relegation system but basketball, baseball, and football could. NCAA and MiLB are popular enough that lower leagues could be sustained.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#76

Post by ajuc »

permo-w wrote: post #38
jnsie wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you'd be offside if your own team member passed you the ball while you were between the player and their goal. You wouldn't be offside if the other team had the ball. Football would be a nightmare if players were hanging out in the other team's box, waiting for the ball to be hoofed upfield to them so they could tap it into the back of the net. Offside stops this from happening by making sure that the receiving p…

> Football would be a nightmare if players were hanging out in the other team's box, waiting for the ball to be hoofed upfield to them so they could tap it into the back of the net this is the commonly-held wisdom on offside, but I’m a little sceptical of it. 7-a-side, 5-a-side and futsal manage just fine without the offside rule (admittedly on smaller pitches). I suspect that 11-a-side would just look different with…

Field size makes all the difference. Try to play on full-size football field for 90 minutes and you start to understand a lot of weird rules and tactics in football.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#77

Post by bombcar »

divan wrote: post #7

Sports is one of the most fascinating and underexplored examples of Goodhart's law (collapsing correlation between the metric and a goal). One of the most widely known examples of this is a London 2012 badminton scandal, when tournament design led to misaligned incentives for teams (it was beneficial for them to lose a game, to meet with less formidable opponent known beforehand). But there are dozens of such cases a…

You find this in online games quite a bit - the have a qualifying round in a tournament which divides players into ten divisions. The top three out of ten in the top four divisions get a great prize, and the top one in the remaining get a slightly lesser version. So it makes sense to smurf yourself into a lower division and hope to win the one prize than compete with equal skill players for the three prizes.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#78

Post by LanceH »

Denvercoder9 wrote: post #64
dylan604 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throughout my life, I've been a player, coach, and referee. In each of those roles, I have been in tournaments where this was the way the tournament was scored. Edit: >though maybe they could go to extra time and penalties As a referee, when a tournament is on the last day, it is not uncommon to hear various tournament officials saying within earshot of the refs "we need winners". This is of course a plausible deniab…

> Throughout my life, I've been a player, coach, and referee. In each of those roles, I have been in tournaments where this was the way the tournament was scored. Where? I've never seen or heard of this scoring system being used in continental Europe (not even in the little kids leagues), and it's also not what's used in the professional tournaments (World Cup, Euros, Copa America, Champions League, etc).

He's not talking pro leagues, but the kinds of leagues where you make a team and sign up for a weekend tournament. That scoring system is very common.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#79

Post by kevinmchugh »

iainmerrick wrote: post #74
PaulHoule wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frequently I get a bunch of free Giants gear around November because my friends who are Giants fans are disgusted with how they are playing and don't want to be seen in them. If the NFL had relegation this couldn't happen so chronically. On the other hand, promotion/relegation needs a big enough market to support multiple tiers. Amazingly, the UK has several layers of leagues that attract fans and seem to be economic…

I think it’s somewhat analogous to both NFL and college football being popular in the US. It’s incredible to me that people are so keen to watch college students play, but I hear it’s a pretty big deal.

There's big swathes of the US that aren't dense enough to attract an NFL team but have plenty of people who like football. The urban/rural divide and state rivalries in the US also makes it an awkward fit sometimes for a person to root for their nearest team.

University teams may also be less anchored to an individual star since they age out so quickly, and could have a coherent identity for decades under a single coach

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#80

Post by bombcar »

steveylang wrote: post #29
katamarimambo wrote: post #14

Considering how 'tanking' for talent acquiring has become a strategy in american sports, I hope at least we get to see this scenario with both teams trying to score own-tds/baskets/etc and fiercily defending the opponents goal in a match

There's also the situation in American football where the team on defense purposely lets another team score a touchdown rather than stop them for a field goal, in order to have some time left to try to regain the lead. Also vice versa, where the player on offense will purposely fall before going into the end zone. This one though is at least somewhat of a double-edged sword, as it's not a 100% given that the team's k…

Time management is a huge important part of American football; books have been written about the (often unintuitive) results: https://johntreed.com/products/football-clock-management-5th...

The clock acts as an impossibly powerful defense that only comes to play for you after a time, and that can be exploited.

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