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Own-goal football (2022)

generalist.academy

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Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#31

Post by dylan604 »

permo-w wrote: post #28
7373737373 wrote: post #11

One other weird thing: When a soccer player who is not a goalkeeper prevents a goal by catching the ball with their hands, they "just" get a red card and the attacking team a penalty, even if they would have certainly scored otherwise. Luis Suarez successfully used this in the 2010 World Cup quarter-finals in the Uruguay vs Ghana game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM-29hy-Qyw - Ghana missed the penalty, which led…

the game would be abandoned, but almost certainly it would be a 3-0 forfeit win to the opposition. perhaps if 3-0 goal difference was advantageous?

for those wondering why 3-0, it's based on tournament points scoring. you get 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw, a point for each goal (maximum of 3 points for goals) per game, and an additional point for the shutout. so, each game in tournament scoring is worth 7 points. after all of those points are added, goal differentials can come into consideration for tie breakers.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#32

Post by permo-w »

kevinmchugh wrote: post #20
permo-w wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

something similar could arise even without double goals in extra time. let’s say your opponents have a man sent off, and you’re up by 1 with minutes left to play, but you need 2 or 3 to qualify. an own-goal to give yourself 30 extra minutes to score those few goals against a weakened opposition is probably the best choice it’s "no draws" rather than "double goals" that creates the unusual incentive. double goals just…

And goal differential as tiebreaker creates an incentive where just winning isn't enough

I think as long as you can’t gain extra time by playing deliberately badly, this is largely okay? it’s good to want to teams to go out and try to hammer each other rather than narrowly shithouse a 1-0, as has been very common in recent major tournaments. even so, a lot of big tournaments have switched to head-to-head tiebreakers recently

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#33

Post by gfunk911 »

In the NHL, you get 2 points for winning, 0 points for losing in regulation, and 1 point for losing in overtime.

The obvious result (to everyone but the creators of the rule I guess) is that, if a game is tied near the end of regulation, it is best for both sides if the game goes to overtime. There are 2 points available for a game decided in regulation, but 3 if decided in overtime. I assume both teams would sit quietly and wait for overtime if it were tolerated.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#35

Post by dylan604 »

furyofantares wrote: post #10
divan wrote: post #7

Sports is one of the most fascinating and underexplored examples of Goodhart's law (collapsing correlation between the metric and a goal). One of the most widely known examples of this is a London 2012 badminton scandal, when tournament design led to misaligned incentives for teams (it was beneficial for them to lose a game, to meet with less formidable opponent known beforehand). But there are dozens of such cases a…

Also interesting is how lots of rules have standard penalties - and this turns them into potential strategic components rather than something you aren't allowed to do. It's not cheating to break these rules, it's considered part of the game.

This is what is known as a "tactical foul" or taking one for the team

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#36

Post by linhns »

barbazoo wrote: post #2

> Football has a lot of strange rules – like Ted Lasso, I still don’t understand exactly how the offside rule works. Spoiler alert, he did figure it out in the end

My bet would be he hasn't fully understood it. Some of his sentences are clunky and messed up his football terms.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#37

Post by amatheus »

buildbot wrote: post #12
ghaff wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every now and then, it seems as if some referees are a bit unclear on the details as well. (It is admittedly a bit squishier than when there is a hard and fast line on some field or court.

It’s always somewhat nonplussing (grammer?) when people say they are unclear on it. If you are past the last defender, on the opposing side of the field, when the ball is kicked to you, offsides. It’s hard to get right though, which is different. Having both ref’d and played soccer, you absolutely need lineman watching the field closely.

The player must be past the line of the ball for it to be offside too; it the ball is passed backwards or at the same line is not offside even if there are no defenders.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#38

Post by permo-w »

jnsie wrote: post #18
yowzadave wrote: post #9

How do you defend against an opponent trying to score an own goal? Wouldn’t it be off-sides if you got between the player and their goal?

No, you'd be offside if your own team member passed you the ball while you were between the player and their goal. You wouldn't be offside if the other team had the ball. Football would be a nightmare if players were hanging out in the other team's box, waiting for the ball to be hoofed upfield to them so they could tap it into the back of the net. Offside stops this from happening by making sure that the receiving p…

> Football would be a nightmare if players were hanging out in the other team's box, waiting for the ball to be hoofed upfield to them so they could tap it into the back of the net

this is the commonly-held wisdom on offside, but I’m a little sceptical of it. 7-a-side, 5-a-side and futsal manage just fine without the offside rule (admittedly on smaller pitches). I suspect that 11-a-side would just look different without offside, it wouldn’t be a completely broken game. your best defenders would still have fair battles with your best attackers, and midfielders-midfielders etc

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#39

Post by divan »

furyofantares wrote: post #10
divan wrote: post #7

Sports is one of the most fascinating and underexplored examples of Goodhart's law (collapsing correlation between the metric and a goal). One of the most widely known examples of this is a London 2012 badminton scandal, when tournament design led to misaligned incentives for teams (it was beneficial for them to lose a game, to meet with less formidable opponent known beforehand). But there are dozens of such cases a…

Also interesting is how lots of rules have standard penalties - and this turns them into potential strategic components rather than something you aren't allowed to do. It's not cheating to break these rules, it's considered part of the game.

Yeah, that's kinda expected. But what I'm more worried about in sports is when metrics(rules) become engrained in that sports culture and start shaping the sport itself.

Like, if an athletics high-jump champion has to jump over a fence with concrete ground – would s/he be still the best in the world? Probably not, because they're focusing on the Fosberry flop technique which works only in a competition setting with a soft landing mat.

Or in figure skating, where officials think that rules should reward "complex elements" and now everyone is chasing "complex" elements (quadruple jumps), skipping the "easy" elements (actual skating skills).

One of the problem with a metric substituting the original True Goal is also when this True Goal is not defined (or different people defined it differently). This type of Goodhart's law is hard to fix. I'm not sure how many sports really have shared understanding of what's a true goal in their sports.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#40

Post by thazework »

yowzadave wrote: post #9

How do you defend against an opponent trying to score an own goal? Wouldn’t it be off-sides if you got between the player and their goal?

As others have said it would not be offside under current rules, but to answer your question the only realistic way to defend against an own goal would be time wasting, faking injury, geberally keeping the ball away from the 16 yard box.
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