Own-goal football (2022) • Hacker News Board

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#61

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 01, 2023, 7:11 PM UTC

waynecochran wrote: post #41

barbazoo wrote: post #2

> Football has a lot of strange rules – like Ted Lasso, I still don’t understand exactly how the offside rule works. Spoiler alert, he did figure it out in the end

After years of watching my kids, I am not sure the refs always know what is offside either. Growing up I always made fun of soccer and considered it a game for uncircumcised foreigners, but I have to like it now because my kids play. The worst thing about soccer is that no one, outside the ref, really knows how much time is left in the game. That and flopping in the box to get penalty shots.

[deleted]

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#62

Post by pubby » Thu, Jun 01, 2023, 7:15 PM UTC

gfunk911 wrote: post #33

In the NHL, you get 2 points for winning, 0 points for losing in regulation, and 1 point for losing in overtime. The obvious result (to everyone but the creators of the rule I guess) is that, if a game is tied near the end of regulation, it is best for both sides if the game goes to overtime. There are 2 points available for a game decided in regulation, but 3 if decided in overtime. I assume both teams would sit qui…

This one boggles my mind because broadcasters don't want games to go into overtime. A 3-point system where overtime win/losses are split 2/1 emphasizes winning in the final few minutes, which is exciting to both viewers and businessmen. Maybe one day they'll switch.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#63

Post by PaulHoule » Thu, Jun 01, 2023, 7:17 PM UTC

kevinmchugh wrote: post #53

PaulHoule wrote: post #25

Stuff like this is why I fell in love with soccer. It didn't come quickly. I was not very engaged with youth soccer as a kid although looking back it was one of very few "safe spaces" for me as a kid where being bullied wasn't a problem. I came to see youth soccer as part of declining social mobility in the U.S. If you were playing little league maybe you could dream of being Babe Ruth but there just wasn't any ladde…

Relegation and promotion are just such good systems that all sports should have them

Frequently I get a bunch of free Giants gear around November because my friends who are Giants fans are disgusted with how they are playing and don't want to be seen in them. If the NFL had relegation this couldn't happen so chronically.

On the other hand, promotion/relegation needs a big enough market to support multiple tiers. Amazingly, the UK has several layers of leagues that attract fans and seem to be economically viable (in some sense) but MLS struggles to attract any attention at all in the U.S. and how second and third tier leagues could be viable is beyond me.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#64

Post by Denvercoder9 » Thu, Jun 01, 2023, 7:21 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #58

smcl wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you're talking about some extremely niche tournament, that's not how it works at all, in football at least. In the majority of league systems you get 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw and that's it . If you are level on points with another team in your group after all games are played then there will be strictly defined rules for that tournament to separate the teams, often a combination of the following…

Throughout my life, I've been a player, coach, and referee. In each of those roles, I have been in tournaments where this was the way the tournament was scored. Edit: >though maybe they could go to extra time and penalties As a referee, when a tournament is on the last day, it is not uncommon to hear various tournament officials saying within earshot of the refs "we need winners". This is of course a plausible deniab…

> Throughout my life, I've been a player, coach, and referee. In each of those roles, I have been in tournaments where this was the way the tournament was scored.

Where? I've never seen or heard of this scoring system being used in continental Europe (not even in the little kids leagues), and it's also not what's used in the professional tournaments (World Cup, Euros, Copa America, Champions League, etc).

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#65

Post by smcl » Thu, Jun 01, 2023, 7:23 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #58

smcl wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you're talking about some extremely niche tournament, that's not how it works at all, in football at least. In the majority of league systems you get 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw and that's it . If you are level on points with another team in your group after all games are played then there will be strictly defined rules for that tournament to separate the teams, often a combination of the following…

Throughout my life, I've been a player, coach, and referee. In each of those roles, I have been in tournaments where this was the way the tournament was scored. Edit: >though maybe they could go to extra time and penalties As a referee, when a tournament is on the last day, it is not uncommon to hear various tournament officials saying within earshot of the refs "we need winners". This is of course a plausible deniab…

In what country and in what sport? Was it younger kids, maybe? I'm not doubting you, I'm genuinely curious because this is incredibly bizarre to me. I dug around on wikipedia and found a couple of dozen examples of some unusual points scoring given[0] but only a handful of smaller US leagues long in the past featured this bonus-points-per-goal system, and seemingly only ever for a short period (experiment?)

Thinking about it, bonus points are maybe a fun way to spice up small-sided games. I think there'd be uproar if it was considered for anything beyond that though :)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_tournament_ranking_syste...

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#66

Post by jfengel » Thu, Jun 01, 2023, 7:27 PM UTC

bowmessage wrote: post #44

gfunk911 wrote: post #33

In the NHL, you get 2 points for winning, 0 points for losing in regulation, and 1 point for losing in overtime. The obvious result (to everyone but the creators of the rule I guess) is that, if a game is tied near the end of regulation, it is best for both sides if the game goes to overtime. There are 2 points available for a game decided in regulation, but 3 if decided in overtime. I assume both teams would sit qui…

Why is that obvious? Why would a team want to allow their opposition to score any points at all?

Because it could be you who gets the point.

If it's tied near the end of regulation, your expectation value is 1. But if you and the other team wait it out and let it go into overtime, your expectation value is 1.5.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#67

Post by kenjackson » Thu, Jun 01, 2023, 7:27 PM UTC

gfunk911 wrote: post #33

In the NHL, you get 2 points for winning, 0 points for losing in regulation, and 1 point for losing in overtime. The obvious result (to everyone but the creators of the rule I guess) is that, if a game is tied near the end of regulation, it is best for both sides if the game goes to overtime. There are 2 points available for a game decided in regulation, but 3 if decided in overtime. I assume both teams would sit qui…

That's only the case if neither team feels like they have a decided advantage before OT to win. Otherwise, you don't want the other team to get a point, because you're competing against them in total points for playoff position.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#68

Post by karmakurtisaani » Thu, Jun 01, 2023, 7:30 PM UTC

Adding to the discussion on the rules set in soccer, I've always found it bad design that the referee has only yellow and red cards for penalizing individual players. Especially the red card is a hard penalty, which leads to the referee having too much influence on the outcome, and to counter that, the referees don't like to give out cards too easily.

Now, the consequence of that is for example that players fake injuries constantly, as they can't be reasonably penalized, but the faking might yield a penalty kick or a red card to the other team. However, it makes the game incredibly cringeworthy to watch.

Contrast this to ice hockey, where the minimal penalty is a timeout of 2 minutes. It's enough to put your team in trouble, but you can recover by playing careful defence for 2 minutes. So if a player fakes injuries or otherwise behaves in a minor bad way, the referee can give them a 2 minute penalty - enough to punish, but not enough to skew the rest of the game.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#69

Post by kenjackson » Thu, Jun 01, 2023, 7:32 PM UTC

furyofantares wrote: post #10

divan wrote: post #7

Sports is one of the most fascinating and underexplored examples of Goodhart's law (collapsing correlation between the metric and a goal). One of the most widely known examples of this is a London 2012 badminton scandal, when tournament design led to misaligned incentives for teams (it was beneficial for them to lose a game, to meet with less formidable opponent known beforehand). But there are dozens of such cases a…

Also interesting is how lots of rules have standard penalties - and this turns them into potential strategic components rather than something you aren't allowed to do. It's not cheating to break these rules, it's considered part of the game.

I've always felt basketball is the worst with this of the major sports. It is a standard strategy to foul at the end of games when losing (or even if winning by 3 in the final seconds). The punishment for fouling is to allow the fouled player to get free throws, but free throws are a skill and not all players are skilled at it. So if you can foul the right person you can often change the probability of the game.

A simple rule change could end this. For example, a foul in the last two minutes is a free throw and the ball.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#70

Post by jbandela1 » Thu, Jun 01, 2023, 7:57 PM UTC

furyofantares wrote: post #10

divan wrote: post #7

Sports is one of the most fascinating and underexplored examples of Goodhart's law (collapsing correlation between the metric and a goal). One of the most widely known examples of this is a London 2012 badminton scandal, when tournament design led to misaligned incentives for teams (it was beneficial for them to lose a game, to meet with less formidable opponent known beforehand). But there are dozens of such cases a…

Also interesting is how lots of rules have standard penalties - and this turns them into potential strategic components rather than something you aren't allowed to do. It's not cheating to break these rules, it's considered part of the game.

Another example is pass interference in college football. It is a first down and 15 yards from the line of scrimmage.

Thus if you are getting beat on a play, rather than potentially allowing 40 or 50 yards and a touchdown, it is better to blatantly pass interfere (tackle the receiver before they get the ball, etc).