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What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

theatlantic.com

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Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#221

Post by bumby »

willio58 wrote: post #155
BJBBB wrote: post #120

This is an edge case. Marines in particular, and the military members in general, will form a special bond that can seldom be duplicated elsewhere. And that has been my experience. I was among a group of six that met at the schoolhouse after boot camp. We did not get sent to the same units, but we were all PCS'd to the same base. Two of us (not myself) made a career of the corps, and the others went to school after s…

Externally, it seems this bond could be explained by: 1. Everyone is together, away from distractions, and unable to leave easily for months on end 2. You are working toward shared goals 3. You are friendly toward each other It's a recipe for a strong bond. Another example of this is famous bands. They're constantly traveling for work, together, trying to write more music and become more famous as they go.

>You are friendly toward each other

Many civilians are aghast when they see how Marines act toward one another. The constant shit-talking and physical fighting probably wouldn't be described as "friendly" but definitely "brotherly"

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#222

Post by maerF0x0 »

bscphil wrote: post #188

I liked this piece a lot. However, I think one failing, which is also tripping up many of the commenters here, is this insistence on ordering one's relationships. Who's my number one? The moment you ask that, you end up with the social norm that one's sexual-romantic partner must be the number one. So you have a ton of people in the comments here who are very defensive of that norm, and you have people like those in…

Part of this normative coupling of "number one" is incorrectly weighting sex as the most important (or even a top 3 thing in our life)[1].

Tim Keller (whom recently passed away) wrote an excellent book "The meaning of marriage" in which he points out that one of the primary functions of such an intimate relationship is to have a safe space/mirror to discover ones flaws (our own, not our partners). The bonding mechanisms of sexuality can make it so that we can have that level of vulnerability (we're bonded are less likely to leave, and less likely to be rational / play political games). It's a religious book and uses the word sin, but I think it's fairly secularly compatible if you can simply read it through the lens of "Sin" meaning "Stuff about me that sucks" ... If you think you have none, then humility is the thing you lack.

[1] I'd say health, purpose, and emotionally supportive community (or for some, "family") are more important than having "good" sex, or even sex at all.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#223

Post by bumby »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #211
willio58 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Externally, it seems this bond could be explained by: 1. Everyone is together, away from distractions, and unable to leave easily for months on end 2. You are working toward shared goals 3. You are friendly toward each other It's a recipe for a strong bond. Another example of this is famous bands. They're constantly traveling for work, together, trying to write more music and become more famous as they go.

I'd extend the shared goals bit to include difficulty. Physically challenging, life risking, risk of failure etc... I've seen far too many "team bonding" setups fit all 3 of your criteria, but fail dismally to result in bonding.

Out of curiosity, what's the context of those team bonding exercises?

I'm curious if the failure is due to short duration and knowing you can revert back to your normal mode in a few days. Humans are creatures of habit, after all, and I don't think what I see in most corporate team-bonding exercises is enough to overcome that in most people.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#225

Post by red_admiral »

nineplay wrote: post #140
NoZebra120vClip wrote: post #17

As June rolled around today, I was just reflecting on the history of sexuality, and the philosophical shift that has occurred relatively recently, from "lifestyle" to "orientation" to "identity" and all that comes with it. People in the past did not consider themselves to have sexual orientations, to be gay or straight or something else. Even someone who was committed to a same-sex romantic relationship wouldn't have…

I think there has been a terrible loss that is rarely acknowledged in that men in the western world can no longer have intimate friendships without having to defend their sexual orientation. Seinfeld's "Not that there's anything wrong with that" became a catchphrase for a reason but the line of thinking still exists. I watched the "Tollywood" film RRR and it was startling and refreshing how much affection the two mai…

I am very much pro-gay in general, but I do wish the community would stop retconning every example they can find into 'actually gay'. I don't mind their headcanons or fan fictions, but there is a layer of meaning you can get from Holmes/Watson if you read it as an intense but non-sexual relationship, of the kind that A. Conan Doyle and his readers would have recognised.

Same for Frodo/Sam, also Tolkien was very religious, so I doubt he intended any sexual subtext.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#226

Post by gjsman-1000 »

kodah wrote: post #104
avar wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an atheist, but this is an honest question: does it? My understanding of catholic doctrine is that Jesus was part of the holy Trinity and knew it before he sacrificed himself. Therefore when he sacrificed himself for humanity he wasn't in the sort of personal danger or at risk of eternal damnation that a mere mortal in his shoes would be. I've always understood that as God making a grand gesture of some sort, not…

Am an atheist that grew up Catholic and studied at a Catholic school for 10+ years; Jesus was more like someone who knew he had a deep connection to God but didn't know he was a part of the holy trinity until his resurrection. He experienced serious moments of doubt exemplified on the cross when he shouted, "Father why have you forsaken me?" He was intwined with local hookers and is thought to have had a relationship…

Then your Catholic school did you wrong.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/could-jesus...

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#227

Post by uoaei »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #219
vorpalhex wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> can see this path in life leading to some new close friendships with the possibility of closer partnerships ahead. Just a few more pulls and the big payout will come. You've spent so many quarters on the slot machine, it'll definitely pay out at any moment. > thought the same thing when I was younger but now I'm in the prime of my dating and casual sex life. I had a very charismatic friend who ended up in this situ…

> Just a few more pulls and the big payout will come. You've spent so many quarters on the slot machine, it'll definitely pay out at any moment. You sound like someone who has won at gambling. Your success is not the only possible or valid path. What you have shared may be wise advice, but advice itself is never a guarantee.

The age-old adage "luck is preparation plus opportunity" is relevant here.

I decided a while ago to be better at being with people, and started preparing myself toward that goal. It's taken a while but I'm doing well now. Also I've set myself up for success by living in a place that attracts and fosters the kinds of folks I like to spend time with -- this is really super important, people aren't the same everywhere you go. Then as summer began coming on this year and people seem to have dropped all those pandemic-time idiosyncracies I've been giving myself ample opportunity to mix with extended friend groups and random meetups (mostly bike rides and races in my case) to great benefit for everyone involved.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#228

Post by nathan_compton »

makeitdouble wrote: post #152
nathan_compton wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really get this. I'm a 'wife guy' too, but I have no fear of the idea of having other close relationships. Obviously there are elements of my relationship with my wife that are exclusive to that arrangement, but almost by definition, having strong social ties to more people cannot hurt you.

What the parent is describing is not a "close" relationship, it's probably more binding. To pull out weird analogies, a mother and a fetus share the same system, they're different people but work as a single unit and need to survive together. I think some marriages are in that level of symbiotic relationship, and when it works it's incredible, when it fails it's really really messy. But it's pretty hard to explain to…

The mother does not depend on the fetus for survival.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#230

Post by nashashmi »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #59
dash2 wrote: post #23

As advanced countries' systems for marriage and child-rearing continue to fail, there is a constant demand for cope. What if we learned to love being single? What if we substitute friendship for marriage? 64 ways to enjoy retirement on your own! This is the collective version of listening to an alcoholic explain why he doesn't have a problem.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is more than one kind of relationship! It's exhausting to constantly hear about romantic commitment as if it's the barometer for all relationships . That's absurd! Did it truly never cross your mind that a person can have more than one meaningful relationship in their lives? No wonder people are so lonely! You don't need one or the other: you can participate in a close…

> There is more than one kind of relationship!

Trying to equate them all as relationships is a misdirection. Relationships with your friends, parents, children, and spouse are not going to be comparable ever. They each have their place. We are trying to flatten them out to how they make us feel. This is an obtuse hammer for an intricately shaped interior.

Example: children are about the future, friendships are not commitments, parents are a compass, spouse is life insurance. (I am simplifying to make a point.)

If you try to expect your spouse to give you the same feeling like your parents do or your children do, that’s a disaster. If you try to think of your spouse in the same way as your friend that’s a disaster too. Spouses require commitments. Friends require recognition. Children require care. Parents require service.

Reality is that much of society has forgotten what a spouse is supposed to be and tries to reinterpret it as friendship. It’s the reason why we are so broken.

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