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What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

theatlantic.com

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Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#51
> 'Chesterton's fence' is the principle that reforms should not be made until the reasoning behind the existing state of affairs is understood.

Marriage is the product of how many generations worth of experimenting with social contracts? You have to be either very young or lack a healthy dose of humility to think you can come up with a better system (in general, not just your case). Or, as I suspect, it's just rationalizing for not being able to build a strong, healthy, life-time relationship. I am in that category myself, as are many people of my generation from where I come from. But I don't need to fool myself I found something that works better.

Even just in theory: a friend simply does not take on the responsibility of taking care of you. He is not invested in your household's success. And I could go on but arguing theory is mostly pointless. Even if your arguments against sound perfectly logic you're missing something for sure. Because in practice marriage is just like democracy: the worst system except all the others. It has stood the test of time in practice.

And if your partner tells you that you're not number 1, that's not really your partner. Run. Now.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#52
post #2

Do I come from an alien universe where people in committed relationships still have friends?

How do you have time for friends besides your spouse after you do jour job, chores, fitness, sleping, education, side projects and random tasks which emerge every now and then? I do have some great friends but only meet them a couple of times a week even though they live very close to me.

Only a couple of times per week? I found this statement kind of funny. Now that I'm married with kids, and my best friends have kids, im lucky if I see them once every few months! Right now I spend more time with my kids' friends families than I do my personal friends.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#53
It's... not?

Three years ago, in my neck of the woods, the men typically worked in offices and the women typically worked in labs and classrooms. Then COVID happened and now the men work from home and the women... still work in labs and classrooms.

They come home socially exhausted, and at the same time we're starved for social interaction. There's no animosity in it, they just need more introvert time and we need more extrovert time.

So we invite them out, but they frequently don't come. And it's enough if a pattern that we end up talking about it. At least among my friends there's consensus that we'd be incredibly lonely if our wives were the center of our lives.

The school year is over now, and I'm overjoyed to have mine back for a while, but when she's unavailable again, thing will probably change back again. It's not perfect, I wish there was more we could do in support if our wives because it kind of feels like they're getting the short end of the stick, but it's not so bad to lovingly leave somebody alone because that's what they need right now.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#54

I don't like anyone as much as I like my wife, straight up. It's incredible to have a partner that acts as my actual 'other half'. We are two sides of the same coin. It's an amazing thing. I can't, nor do I want to, get that close to other people.

That doesn't always happen though. I feel the most lonely when I'm alone with my wife. We can only have a back and forth conversation on topics that interest her, or the day to day of the house/kids, anything outside those things is just never discussed or is a one-way conversation that just dies.

I was friendless and grew up with the same 15 boys until the end of highschool, never fit in. Married the first girl who showed me attention, because whatever she had going on was better than the nothing social life I had. Breaking up with her would put me back being the lonely awkward kid at my parents house.

So now two kids and a mortgage later... realizing that being married to a 2/10 friend is very lonely. The Venn diagram of what I like to think and talk about covers what she likes to think and talk about, but we never talk about or do almost anything in my section of the diagram.

Apparently this problem has been happening since time immemorial - from a This is Love podcast...

Phoebe Judge: Many people say the first ever advice column started in the 1690s in England in a publication called The Athenian Mercury. People wrote in with very big questions like, is there a large part of the world still left to discover? The answer was just one word — yes. Someone wrote, “Who are wisest, those who marry for love or for convenience?” The answer was:

There is no degree of wisdom in either, but they're both fools if they marry for one without the other. Love without the necessary conveniences of life will soon wear threadbare. And conveniences without love are no better than being chained to a post for the sake of a little meat, drink, and clothing. But if we compare the small degrees of each together, much love and moderate convenience is far better than the most plentiful estate with little or no love.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#55
post #2

Do I come from an alien universe where people in committed relationships still have friends?

How do you have time for friends besides your spouse after you do jour job, chores, fitness, sleping, education, side projects and random tasks which emerge every now and then? I do have some great friends but only meet them a couple of times a week even though they live very close to me.

> only meet them a couple of times a week

You're very, very lucky

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#56
post #49
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it bizarre? It seems the same category as saying friendship is failing, which also is a reasonable claim; see the entire bowling alone thesis. I'd probably group them all under the umbrella of social connections failing, which I'd consider one of the biggest issues of US society today.

>social connections failing I have to wonder if people, and newer generations in particular, just fucking suck at socializing. Humanity has very literally never had it easier to communicate and socialize, and yet somehow the vast majority consider themselves isolated.

Communicate? Yes. Socialize? No.

It's easier to socialize when you are physically beside someone.

There are less kids playing in the street. They are no arcades.

As a parent you must bring your child to other children. You must encourage or mandate extracurricular activities.

We are not a society where children are naturally surrounded by other children in their 0-4 years.

We are not a society where adults are naturally surrounded by similiar adults outside of the in office work space.

Its a matter of proximity and what is the default state.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#57
post #5

Euro perspective: sounds like an american problem of people moving halfway across the country instead of usually settling down nearby with their highschool friends doing mostly the same thing.

This doesn’t ring true to me at all. My Irish high school friends have scattered to the winds.

And in my adopted European city everyone I know is from somewhere else. Europe isn’t one thing though maybe where you are your scenario is the norm.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#58
post #27
post #23

As advanced countries' systems for marriage and child-rearing continue to fail, there is a constant demand for cope. What if we learned to love being single? What if we substitute friendship for marriage? 64 ways to enjoy retirement on your own! This is the collective version of listening to an alcoholic explain why he doesn't have a problem.

How exactly is "marriage" failing? This notion that two people being in a long term relationship can somehow suffer systemic failure or attack is bizzare. No objection re: children though. We've done an absolute number there via cost of living.

[deleted]

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#59
post #23

As advanced countries' systems for marriage and child-rearing continue to fail, there is a constant demand for cope. What if we learned to love being single? What if we substitute friendship for marriage? 64 ways to enjoy retirement on your own! This is the collective version of listening to an alcoholic explain why he doesn't have a problem.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

There is more than one kind of relationship!

It's exhausting to constantly hear about romantic commitment as if it's the barometer for all relationships. That's absurd!

Did it truly never cross your mind that a person can have more than one meaningful relationship in their lives? No wonder people are so lonely!

You don't need one or the other: you can participate in a close friendship and casual sex. You can have several of each.

No relationship must last forever, either; or be started at the same time.

Relationship isn't what we are, it's what we do.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I ask what religion?

Traditional Catholicism. “Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it.” Doesn’t take more than a minute of reflection to figure out why we interpret it this way. Edit @avar to your question ("posting too fast"): https://gist.github.com/gjsman/d928b0db53cc2a4bacf37d4e45543...

I'm an atheist, but this is an honest question: does it?

My understanding of catholic doctrine is that Jesus was part of the holy Trinity and knew it before he sacrificed himself.

Therefore when he sacrificed himself for humanity he wasn't in the sort of personal danger or at risk of eternal damnation that a mere mortal in his shoes would be.

I've always understood that as God making a grand gesture of some sort, not that Jesus was in personal danger comparable to that of a mortal in his shoes.

Of course being tortured for days before being guaranteed a seat by God's side in heaven upon death would royally suck in the short term.

But I'd think an internally cotsisconsistent interpretation of doctrine would call for a personal sacrifice short of that of Jesus in his last days from a mere mortal, the odds being stacked in the deity's favor. No?

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