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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#271

Post by rainsford »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #184
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also a third problem with this.... what happens when shit hits the fan? If you use gas and your neighbours use electricity, and there's suddenly a power outage, you can help your neighbors and heat/cook their food too,... or in case of a gas system outage, they can help with yours. If you heat with gas, you don't freeze even with a power outage, and can still buy a cheap electric heater with a gas outage...…

I'm guessing (maybe hoping?) that the downvotes are for the seemingly overly apocalyptic tone of your post. But FWIW, as someone who is from Texas who lost power for 5 days during Uri and nearly a week for the latest freeze this winter, I wholeheartedly agree. Not sure how I would have made it during Uri without gas - even with gas, we couldn't run our heater (system still needs electricity to run the fans, thermosta…

I get the argument, but to me it seems overly myopic. Our current electrical grid isn't alien technology we're just stuck with. If it's so bad we can't realistically rely on it to heat our homes or cook our food, maybe we should work on making it better, and in the process have all the other benefits of a reliable grid. The recent Texas outage is a perfect example. It was incredibly rare weather, but my understanding is that a lot of the problems could have been significantly mitigated with some investment in improving infrastructure. Again totally understand the concern, but having to keep gas around forever because we can't be bothered to fix our grid seems like not a great long-term solution compared to fixing the underlying issue.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#272

Post by Aunche »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #166

I don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides. On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, whe…

>Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use

Gas cooking makes sense when the infrastructure costs can be amortized with that of heating. One of these costs is the 2-3% of gas that leaks, and this loss will occur even if you heat your home with heat pumps so long as you're connected to the gas grid. If your only use of gas is cooking, it makes much more sense to simply buy cans of propane.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#273

Post by DangitBobby »

throwaway892238 wrote: post #207
OkGoDoIt wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. There’s been a lot of storms this spring and the wind has brought down power cables left and right. That’s in addition to whatever other crap is up that’s causing power and even occasionally gas to be shut off for days at a time. Depending on where you live in the bay area, you might’ve had a few hour long shut offs, a few day long shut off’s, or worse and that’s just this year. I personally have had almost 3 to…

Everybody should listen to The Dollop's episodes on PG&E. It's pretty nuts. https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDollop/comments/11e1c8u/the_doll... https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDollop/comments/11kmmsk/the_doll... Amazingly this is not the worst US utility company. They are all pretty horrible.

Wow now I feel really grateful to have maybe one or two outages (that last maybe an hour) per year!

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#274

Post by seanmcdirmid »

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #196
philip1209 wrote: post #174

Electricity is a universal protocol - you can generate it with multiple different energy sources, ranging from gas to nuclear. I think this change future-proofs constructions, and makes our infrastructure less fragile.

How is an all-electric infrastructure “less fragile”? I don’t see any advantage for the end user. The only thing that works during a power outage is the gas stove. Regarding power generation, gas is cheap and plentiful and gas power plants are much easier to build than nuclear. Nuclear takes years to get regulatory approval. Anyway, no one’s building nuclear. Germany closed down their last three nuclear plants, for s…

Gas is cheap except when it isn’t. If you are a European depending on cheap natural gas from Russia, well, a simple war with Ukraine could be enough to shut you off.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#275

Post by Gibbon1 »

nuancebydefault wrote: post #188
implements wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America is 120v now, I believe - and many houses have a centre-tapped neutral supply [1] which means they actually can have 240v outlets in garages, workshops, utility rooms (etc) for high power devices. [1] https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/487836/how-d...

So this is different from a 3 phase system (N L1 L2 L3) with 120 degrees shift between the lines? It is instead basically a 2 phase system N L1 L2 with a 180 degree phase shift between L1 and L2? I was already confused with the 240 being mentioned somewhere in this thread... it becomes a bit clearer now.

Most US residential housing is fed off a 240V center tapped transformer. Center tap is connected to ground and neutral at the breaker panel. That gives you two 120V phases to neutral. And 240V from phase to phase.

In the breaker panels the phase alternates as you go down the rows of breakers. So you can install a dual breaker for 240V. Typically only large appliances like stoves, water heater, driers, and air conditioners are 240V. Everything else is 120V.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#276

Post by 8note »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #176
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #166

I don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides. On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, whe…

There is also a third problem with this.... what happens when shit hits the fan? If you use gas and your neighbours use electricity, and there's suddenly a power outage, you can help your neighbors and heat/cook their food too,... or in case of a gas system outage, they can help with yours. If you heat with gas, you don't freeze even with a power outage, and can still buy a cheap electric heater with a gas outage...…

An argument for backups is an argument for backups, rather than an argument for gas stoves.

Gas systems could make a backup, but don't unless they're designed to, and even if they do, you're gonna have a cheaper time installing just the one system than multiple. A generator, or a community generator with rollover practice is the right answer.

You don't see hospitals making every other room gas so they can survive a power outage. Instead, they have a generator

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#277

Post by none_to_remain »

hotpotamus wrote: post #54
71a54xd wrote: post #5

The irony is most of the industrial energy used in NYC to spin the pumps and fans in HVAC and thermal energy provided for heating water in boilers / air in NYC comes from steam generation plants. I used to live next to one near w58th street. For those who don't know, these massive facilities as large as power plants (some historically protected) run on natural gas! Although, it did boggle the mind how my luxury 2br a…

Is that to say there's a municipal steam power system of some sort? That's pretty alien to me, but it reminds me that there was a municipal hydraulic system in London before the advent of electricity that industrial users used for energy.

I think that comment is just referring to power plants using steam turbines to generate electricity. But there is also a stream distribution system in NYC. My apartment complex has heat and hot water from Con Edison (power company) steam.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#278

Post by sudosysgen »

lumb63 wrote: post #193
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #166

I don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides. On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, whe…

+1 regarding cooking gas being a minuscule amount of gas usage overall. And not to mention, gas is still the first choice for most serious cooks, so the small benefit comes at relatively large cost to lifestyle. Regarding heat pumps phasing out gas heat, in NY it isn’t feasible. It gets too cold. In more temperate climates, sure, but in the northern US and further, there will be a need for on-demand heat for a long t…

I live north of New York, in Canada, and use a heat pump for heating. It works perfectly well.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#279

Post by seanmcdirmid »

0xdead8ead wrote: post #114
someonehere wrote: post #22

Berkeley attempted this and it was recently overturned: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-califo... California's electric grid is in horrendous shape. We can barely keep the power on in the summertime, especially when wildfires happen. When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ?

Eugene tried this as well. City council passed it without input from the community and is facing backlash. Since the 9th circuit decision, the ordinance has been called into question. https://www.bendbulletin.com/business/eugene-s-natural-gas-b... The community has since generated enough signatures to put the ban to a public vote that will be voted on in November. Anecdotally, I'd say, most my neighbors are against t…

Have you tried induction? A kettle on an induction stove will boil pretty quickly and evenly, induction stoves are superior to gas stoves for most tasks (the exception being wok cooking, but you can get curved induction stoves for that). When we rewire our kitchen, I want a 220-40V plug for a separate kettle as well, just because water boiled so much faster in China than when we moved to the states.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#280

Post by 8note »

dadjoker wrote: post #190
philip1209 wrote: post #174

Electricity is a universal protocol - you can generate it with multiple different energy sources, ranging from gas to nuclear. I think this change future-proofs constructions, and makes our infrastructure less fragile.

As California has shown multiple times, dependence on electricity alone can be disastrous.

Dependence on the electricity is fine, dependence on the grid alone can be disastrous.

Depending on two different grid's is better whether the second one is gas or your own electricity generation

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