New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings • Hacker News Board

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#261

Post by prottog » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 8:43 PM UTC

rhaway84773 wrote: post #254

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #166

I don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides. On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, whe…

People are misrepresenting this. No one is banning gas. You can go ahead and buy a gas stove and use it. What you cannot do is expect buildings to install piping throughout the building, the gas provider to provide infrastructure to supply that building with gas, and get the gas out of a tap. The vast majority of the world in fact does not have gas coming out of a tap because it’s not profitable. The U.S. has it almo…

> The U.S. has it almost entirely because of regulation thst requires it to be provided

If this is true, then why is the New York Times calling it a ban? Wouldn't it be more accurate to call it a repeal of whatever legislation that was requiring it?

Do you have a source on this regulation?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#262

Post by hedora » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 8:43 PM UTC

danans wrote: post #106

hedora wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think it’s impractical to upgrade service lines. It is, however, impractical to get PG&E to approve the upgrade. (For us, that process cost about 3 years and $10K. They ran a wire 6 feet from an existing transformer to a pole we had to install ourselves). When they pass these laws, they should come with an SLA for the utility provider to approve “engineering” plans for the utility hookup and whatever transfor…

> (For us, that process cost about 3 years and $10K. They ran a wire 6 feet from an existing transformer to a pole we had to install ourselves). Must have been a while ago because in 2021 they charged me $0 (not a typo) to go from 100A to 200A. It took just a month or so to arrange.

In our situation, the issue was that the service had been disconnected, and we needed to move the meter about 20 feet (no obstructions, no buried lines).

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#263

Post by analog31 » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 8:43 PM UTC

bradlys wrote: post #246

whiddershins wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only because of the thermostat, right? You could short the contact that turns the boiler on.

There's this thing called a fan that's inside your furnace. If the electricity goes out - you're gonna die of cold anyway because there's no way to move the heat from the furnace through your ductwork.

That's right, the fan. And the little blower that brings the combustion air.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#264

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 8:44 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #184

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also a third problem with this.... what happens when shit hits the fan? If you use gas and your neighbours use electricity, and there's suddenly a power outage, you can help your neighbors and heat/cook their food too,... or in case of a gas system outage, they can help with yours. If you heat with gas, you don't freeze even with a power outage, and can still buy a cheap electric heater with a gas outage...…

I'm guessing (maybe hoping?) that the downvotes are for the seemingly overly apocalyptic tone of your post. But FWIW, as someone who is from Texas who lost power for 5 days during Uri and nearly a week for the latest freeze this winter, I wholeheartedly agree. Not sure how I would have made it during Uri without gas - even with gas, we couldn't run our heater (system still needs electricity to run the fans, thermosta…

We lost electricity due to an ice storm for a couple of weeks when I was a kid in Mississippi. No natural gas at all, but we bought propane heaters to get through it.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#265

Post by jltsiren » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 8:44 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #166

I don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides. On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, whe…

If the plan is to phase out natural gas heating in a reasonable timeframe, you need to stop new investments in it soon. A ban is a crude tool, but it may be better than telling residents of new buildings that they must start planning to replace their heating systems, because natural gas deliveries will end in 2035 or 2040.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#266

Post by Zak » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 8:44 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #189

topaz0 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big part of the reason for banning gas is not energy but indoor pollution. There's pretty strong and growing evidence that cooking with gas leads to substantial health risks because of various combustion products that end up in your air (especially if not properly vented).

From what I’ve read the same indoor pollution exists with induction even if not vented. The confounding variable is that induction generally is present in new construction which will have proper ventilation. TLDR: it’s a function of ventilation

One of the concerns is nitrogen oxides (mostly nitrogen dioxide, as I recall) from high temperature combustion. Car engines attempt to limit combustion temperatures (usually by adding some exhaust gasses to the intake air) to reduce its production.

Ventilation prevents it from reaching hazardous levels from a gas stove; induction does not produce it.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#267

Post by rhaway84773 » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 8:44 PM UTC

lumb63 wrote: post #193

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #166

I don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides. On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, whe…

+1 regarding cooking gas being a minuscule amount of gas usage overall. And not to mention, gas is still the first choice for most serious cooks, so the small benefit comes at relatively large cost to lifestyle. Regarding heat pumps phasing out gas heat, in NY it isn’t feasible. It gets too cold. In more temperate climates, sure, but in the northern US and further, there will be a need for on-demand heat for a long t…

Most new buildings in NYC are already heat pump based.

For the obvious reason that it’s much cheaper.

Ban cooking gas as well, and they save a ton of money running gas pipes, and utility companies having to maintain that gas pipe.

Also, “serious cooks” can still use their gas stoves. They just need to hook it up to a cylinder like most of the world manages just fine, but apparently the people in the richest country in the world can’t figure out.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#268

Post by gwbas1c » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 8:44 PM UTC

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #176

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #166

I don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides. On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, whe…

There is also a third problem with this.... what happens when shit hits the fan? If you use gas and your neighbours use electricity, and there's suddenly a power outage, you can help your neighbors and heat/cook their food too,... or in case of a gas system outage, they can help with yours. If you heat with gas, you don't freeze even with a power outage, and can still buy a cheap electric heater with a gas outage...…

> If you use gas and your neighbours use electricity, and there's suddenly a power outage

I got solar, a powerwall, and a wood stove.

(I also have a gas stove, but I wish I put the money into buying an extra powerwall.)

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#269

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 8:45 PM UTC

rhaway84773 wrote: post #255

The reactions to the gas hookup ban really reminds me of how insular Americans really are. They can’t even imagine a world where gas does not come in pipes, when arguably that’s how the vast majority of the world lives. You want a gas stove? Buy a gas stove, and get a cylinder. No one is stopping you from doing that. Just don’t expect everyone else to subsidize running that gas in a pipe up to your gas stove.

Large parts of the south in the USA lack natural gas from pipes also. Propane is much more common in those parts (see the cartoon “King of the Hill” for example).

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#270

Post by wingspar » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 8:46 PM UTC

tialaramex wrote: post #235

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #166

I don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides. On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, whe…

One reason to specifically forbid new installations is to avoid stranding people when you later legislate provision out of existence altogether. Sooner or later this is going away. If you announce you're not doing new installations, that starts a timer on the existing users. In 2028 everything in use is at least 5 years old. In summer 2035 everything in use is at least 12 years old. Politically that makes it a lot ea…

As I understand it, it’s a ban on piping gas lines in new construction, not installing gas equipment in existing buildings.

In summer 2035, you won’t have any buildings than less than 12 years old with gas available, But, as I understand it from the article, someone could replace their stove or heating system in a building that has pre-ban gas, no problem at any point in the intervening 12 years. Even the winter of 2035.