New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings
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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
A bigger problem is getting a feed to your house that can handle your hot water heater, stove, washing machine, and electric car charging all at once. That's rather impractical in some areas, so there is some work to coordinate between the appliances so they can share a smaller feed. The way some stoves are participating is that they charge a battery at relatively low current all the time, and then cook from the batt…
Worst case at 240v : Electric hot water heater = 20 amps Electric stove = 50 amps all burners on and oven Washing machine = 15 amps Car charger = 50 amps Total = 135 amps Standard residential service in the US = 200 amps split phase @ 240v Whats the problem?
For a new build - the building code should suggest/require that a battery backup/Powerwall circuit be added that only supplies the essentials.
If you can stick to plugin hybrids and go without AC during a power outage...
Electric hot water heater = 20 amps
Electric stove = 50 amps all burners on and oven
Internet, Misc = 1 amps
Total < 75 amps
Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Ironically the best combo is a heat pump + natural gas furnace as a backup. Best of both worlds. But here we are making those illegal so we can pretend to save the planet. How does this work in practice though? The natural gas distribution lines don't pay for themselves. If they're only gonna be used in emergencies then they'll be crazy expensive. You have a lot of money by not having to run natural gas through a n…
I agree with everything you said except there has been a war on heating oil since before this tiff with natural gas. So even suggesting that is anathema because it would be career suicide for the politicians pushing this. You can certainly use an oil furnace as a second stage, though oil is more often used as a boiler for steam or hydronic.
Storing heating oil is risky, expensive and is a dirty use of a property due to the need for an underground or above ground tank.
Abatement of tank leaks can run into the millions as you have to dig up all soil contaminated by heating oil when the tank is retired, and tank retirement is a cost that holds up many property sales and redevelopment here in the Pacific Northwest.
Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can't modern heat pumps work even in crazy cold climates now? I seem to remember seeing that some are rated for -20F nowadays.
I lived in a building with heat pumps in Europe. In colder climate, they're loud. As in, LOUD. It's likely fine when you can install the external module somewhere on the roof (poor birds though), but in many apartment buildings you can only put it on the outer walls, and you can clearly hear the sound inside the flat. Internal modules that cycle air are also noisy, though less. I'm glad to pay the premium for silent…
There are quiet heat pumps available:
https://homeinspectioninsider.com/are-all-heat-pumps-noisy-1...
Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can't modern heat pumps work even in crazy cold climates now? I seem to remember seeing that some are rated for -20F nowadays.
Not when the power's out for days - as often happens in winter storms. You can run the blower and electronics of a natural gas furnace or boiler off a little camping generator for a week or even better a natural gas whole house unit in perpetuity. So you don't, you know, freeze to death.
"You can run the blower and electronics of a natural gas furnace or boiler off a little camping generator.."
Likewise for a heat pump, right?
Does this "power out for days after a winter storm" thing actually happen very often? I am from Manitoba and my worst-ever experience was 10-11 hours when it was very, very cold out in 35+ years.
Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
Electric resistance heat is super inefficient. That's why it's often referred to as "emergency heat". Ironically the best combo is a heat pump + natural gas furnace as a backup. Best of both worlds. But here we are making those illegal so we can pretend to save the planet.
>> Electric resistance heat is super inefficient I know what you mean but it is actually nearly 100% efficient. The inefficient part is converting high entropy heat to low entropy electricity.
Heat pumps are significantly >100% efficient, if measured as (heat energy brought inside)/(electrical energy consumed).
Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
A bigger problem is getting a feed to your house that can handle your hot water heater, stove, washing machine, and electric car charging all at once. That's rather impractical in some areas, so there is some work to coordinate between the appliances so they can share a smaller feed. The way some stoves are participating is that they charge a battery at relatively low current all the time, and then cook from the batt…
> If that's your contingency plan, check that a safety valve doesn't close when power is lost. And for good reason. Gas cookers require ventilation, to prevent carbon monoxide build up. An electric extractor fan won't work during a power cut.
I don't know how the codes are where you live, but in EU the norms are for natural ventilation in kitchens where gas stoves are used.
Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings
#68Berkeley attempted this and it was recently overturned: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-califo... California's electric grid is in horrendous shape. We can barely keep the power on in the summertime, especially when wildfires happen. When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ?
A bigger problem is getting a feed to your house that can handle your hot water heater, stove, washing machine, and electric car charging all at once. That's rather impractical in some areas, so there is some work to coordinate between the appliances so they can share a smaller feed. The way some stoves are participating is that they charge a battery at relatively low current all the time, and then cook from the batt…
I don’t think it’s impractical to upgrade service lines. It is, however, impractical to get PG&E to approve the upgrade. (For us, that process cost about 3 years and $10K. They ran a wire 6 feet from an existing transformer to a pole we had to install ourselves).
When they pass these laws, they should come with an SLA for the utility provider to approve “engineering” plans for the utility hookup and whatever transformer upgrades are required utility-side.
There should be a ~ $250 per day fine, payable in cash to the homeowner once the SLA is exceeded. That’s roughly 2x normal homeowner costs due to delay of construction approvals (and therefore financing / alternative housing costs for those days) and using gas generators to power the site.
Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
Worst case at 240v : Electric hot water heater = 20 amps Electric stove = 50 amps all burners on and oven Washing machine = 15 amps Car charger = 50 amps Total = 135 amps Standard residential service in the US = 200 amps split phase @ 240v Whats the problem?
All the other 15 amp circuits people take for granted for things like lights, the clothes dryer and the heat/cooling system you left off your list (heat pump + air handler + emergency heat coils)... Add in the 80% rule and 200amps doesn't go as far as one might hope in a gas free-house.
There are some induction stove startups that are using batteries to not only not require 240v hookups but perform even better than a standard induction stove... the idea is that with cheap battery technology you can take advantage of the fact that not everything in your house will be running and charging at the same time.
Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
Worst case at 240v : Electric hot water heater = 20 amps Electric stove = 50 amps all burners on and oven Washing machine = 15 amps Car charger = 50 amps Total = 135 amps Standard residential service in the US = 200 amps split phase @ 240v Whats the problem?
All the other 15 amp circuits people take for granted for things like lights, the clothes dryer and the heat/cooling system you left off your list (heat pump + air handler + emergency heat coils)... Add in the 80% rule and 200amps doesn't go as far as one might hope in a gas free-house.
I run my washer and dryer on a single 15 amp circuit. Heat pump dryers are very efficient.