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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#11

Post by reisse »

tombert wrote: post #3
stathibus wrote: post #2

Everyone is worked up about losing their gas stove, but natural gas heating is far more reliable and efficient than any electric option right now. This will create a lot of issues until heat pumps catch up. Northern New York is very cold.

Can't modern heat pumps work even in crazy cold climates now? I seem to remember seeing that some are rated for -20F nowadays.

I lived in a building with heat pumps in Europe. In colder climate, they're loud. As in, LOUD. It's likely fine when you can install the external module somewhere on the roof (poor birds though), but in many apartment buildings you can only put it on the outer walls, and you can clearly hear the sound inside the flat. Internal modules that cycle air are also noisy, though less.

I'm glad to pay the premium for silent heating.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#12

Post by john_shafthair »

oakwhiz wrote: post #8
71a54xd wrote: post #5

The irony is most of the industrial energy used in NYC to spin the pumps and fans in HVAC and thermal energy provided for heating water in boilers / air in NYC comes from steam generation plants. I used to live next to one near w58th street. For those who don't know, these massive facilities as large as power plants (some historically protected) run on natural gas! Although, it did boggle the mind how my luxury 2br a…

If buildings were required by code to have a more "fume hood"-like setup for capturing exhaust (with supply and return paths maintaining flow) then it would lead to better indoor air quality. As a bonus this is even a good idea anyway for electric stoves since it keeps any smells and smoke from leaving the kitchen area.

They ARE required by code and have been for years. Parent's "luxury" apartment was not built to code. Probably one of those illegal NYC apartments where you tear open the walls and there's a whole other furnished room inside that isn't shown on the blueprints.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#13

Post by oakwhiz »

john_shafthair wrote: post #12
oakwhiz wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If buildings were required by code to have a more "fume hood"-like setup for capturing exhaust (with supply and return paths maintaining flow) then it would lead to better indoor air quality. As a bonus this is even a good idea anyway for electric stoves since it keeps any smells and smoke from leaving the kitchen area.

They ARE required by code and have been for years. Parent's "luxury" apartment was not built to code. Probably one of those illegal NYC apartments where you tear open the walls and there's a whole other furnished room inside that isn't shown on the blueprints.

Is there a possibility that very old buildings are grandfathered in with existing ducts? Maybe they should be required to upgrade that.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#14

Post by john_shafthair »

tamaharbor wrote: post #9
stathibus wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some are, and some of those even live up to their temperature rating, but they are subject to wind chill and can also fail due to ice and snow build-up, so its not as good as it sounds.

What is the backup, resistance heating?

Electric resistance heat is super inefficient. That's why it's often referred to as "emergency heat".

Ironically the best combo is a heat pump + natural gas furnace as a backup. Best of both worlds. But here we are making those illegal so we can pretend to save the planet.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#15

Post by cwillu »

tombert wrote: post #3
stathibus wrote: post #2

Everyone is worked up about losing their gas stove, but natural gas heating is far more reliable and efficient than any electric option right now. This will create a lot of issues until heat pumps catch up. Northern New York is very cold.

Can't modern heat pumps work even in crazy cold climates now? I seem to remember seeing that some are rated for -20F nowadays.

My city was only a couple degrees short of -40 this last winter.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#16

Post by john_shafthair »

oakwhiz wrote: post #13
john_shafthair wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They ARE required by code and have been for years. Parent's "luxury" apartment was not built to code. Probably one of those illegal NYC apartments where you tear open the walls and there's a whole other furnished room inside that isn't shown on the blueprints.

Is there a possibility that very old buildings are grandfathered in with existing ducts? Maybe they should be required to upgrade that.

It's very possible, and might be impossible to upgrade a large multi unit building. In most jurisdictions a large renovation would force you to upgrade such things. In this case I would assume simply disallowing a gas stove without proper venting. Though I suspect the permitting process in NYC resembles something out of The Sopranos, assuming the proper permits were obtained.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#18

Post by lesuorac »

rayiner wrote: post #17

And NPR told me that the possibility of gas stoves being banned was fake outrage: https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/1150228734/the-facts-and-stra... .

> And NPR told me that the possibility of gas stoves being banned was fake outrage: https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/1150228734/the-facts-and-stra...

No they didn't.

> MARTÍNEZ: Look, Jeff and Lisa, I don't know what's going to happen with gas stoves.

Also NPR was talking about the Federal government. While the article above is talking about the New York _State_ government.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#19

Post by gainda »

"In addition to the environmental concerns raised by such widespread use of natural gas, some health experts have also argued that using it in the home, especially when cooking, may pose a health risk to consumers."

Spending a day walking around NYC is probably worse for my health than years of gas stove usage. Every time I leave the city I feel like I need a shower from all the grime and who knows what I feel caked on me.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#20

Post by CydeWeys »

john_shafthair wrote: post #14
tamaharbor wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the backup, resistance heating?

Electric resistance heat is super inefficient. That's why it's often referred to as "emergency heat". Ironically the best combo is a heat pump + natural gas furnace as a backup. Best of both worlds. But here we are making those illegal so we can pretend to save the planet.

> Ironically the best combo is a heat pump + natural gas furnace as a backup. Best of both worlds. But here we are making those illegal so we can pretend to save the planet.

How does this work in practice though? The natural gas distribution lines don't pay for themselves. If they're only gonna be used in emergencies then they'll be crazy expensive. You have a lot of money by not having to run natural gas through a neighborhood at all.

A more realistic backup in these types of places (which is used widely in the northeast) is heating fuel oil in a tank.

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