Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs • Hacker News Board

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#141

Post by bitL » Sat, Apr 22, 2023, 12:13 PM UTC

esperent wrote: post #43

kfk wrote: post #12

I am getting a bit deeper into the food industry since I started investing in a startup that plans to produce animal feed with insects. Animal feeds are prepared with specific properties, for instance, fish feed at 60% protein. The impact of different percentages of compounds is measured closely on animal well being, growth, weight… I am quite bothered that we don’t do the same for human foods. We lighlty compare rea…

> We lighlty compare real milk with plant based milk without being honest about the completely different properties of the two For sure, there are many differences between plant based and dairy milk. Besides the protein levels, for example, a large percentage of humans - between 10 and 90 percent depending on genetic background - are lactose intolerant and can't digest animal milk. Plant based milks don't have this p…

Mammal milk contains lactoferrin, a very powerful anti-viral/bacterial/fungal molecule that helps fighting invaders in your gut. Lactose-free milk would still work to avoid age-related digestion issues. By skipping it you are likely going to develop gut issues in a few years/decades. See the clinical section here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactoferrin

"Lactoferrin in sufficient strength acts on a wide range of human and animal viruses based on DNA and RNA genomes,[46] including the herpes simplex virus 1 and 2,[47][48][49] cytomegalovirus,[50] HIV,[48][51] hepatitis C virus,[52][53] hantaviruses, rotaviruses, poliovirus type 1,[54] human respiratory syncytial virus, murine leukemia viruses[43] and Mayaro virus.[55] Activity against COVID-19 has been speculated but not proven"

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#142

Post by timrichard » Sat, Apr 22, 2023, 12:18 PM UTC

nibbleshifter wrote: post #68

karmakurtisaani wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny you are worried about the impact of vegan alternatives and not, say, sugars, alcohol, overly fatty or salty foods, too much bad quality meat raised with hormones etc. It's almost like you have a bias against the vegan alternative.. Edit: ok so I was not terribly constructive with this comment, so happy to elaborate. I'm pretty tired of this argument against vegan meat. The nutritional values of vegan meat…

> bad quality meat raised with hormones Luckily, these are pretty much illegal in all of European Union. Traceability regulations and the regulators being pretty on the ball with checking (even more so since the horsemeat issue years ago) mean we don't get such garbage in our market.

They have lifted restrictions on feeding animal remains to livestock, in the name of competition. Those restrictions were there for good reason in the wake of the BSE crisis.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/22/eu-to-lift-its...

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#143

Post by saiya-jin » Sat, Apr 22, 2023, 12:21 PM UTC

_cenw wrote: post #88

mtkd wrote: post #7

> vegan meat products saw a 21 percent increase in unit sales from 2020 to 2022 > During the same period, animal-based meat and milk sales dropped by eight and nine percent, respectively There are likely additional factors at play in the animal based drop UK ONS shows whole milk at low of 43p/l in 2020 increasing to 70p/l in Mar 23 and minced beef from 609p/kg to 812p/kg in 23 -- but those numbers likely do not refle…

Milk was heavily subsidized and the prices were pushed to a point where all but the largest scale producers were making losses (~30 cents per liter) where I live whereas the price of plant based milk used to have a huge novely / vegan markup that wasn't based in production cost. The cost of plant based milk is not exactly much less than dairy now, but it is actually cheaper if you go by discount brand prices. That so…

Which animal harm do you mean by having cows for milk? Its easy to buy bio milk which comes from free grazing cows, the cost of it is almost the same as basic milk where I live. I can tell you from my daily personal experience those are some of the happiest non-wild animals you can meet in person.

I mean if we move away from it, yes technically there will be 0 harm possible because we will have to kill all the diary cows, and prevent their offsprings from ever again being born. But thats kind of argument like killing all humans apart from me will end all of human suffering, technically true but not what we want.

Plant based 'milk' aint no milk, just drink with some flavors. Not judging or arguing for/against, but its not equivalent nor replacement in ie nutrition nor taste.

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#144

Post by watchdogtimer » Sat, Apr 22, 2023, 12:22 PM UTC

mg wrote: post #13

Vegans of HN: What do you supplement and why? Personally, I supplement VitaminD3 and Iron. And I make sure to eat salad, carrots and avocado every day. I came up with this regime after getting my blood work done and after exactly tracking all my nutritional values for a while and comparing those to the suggested amounts. I also have a long running project in the "statistics of one" space, where I track a lot of treat…

I'm a 58 year old male, and have consumed a vegan diet for almost 40 years now. I take a women's daily multivitamin, primarily for the iron. I also take a calcium-magnesium-zinc tablet, as the multivitamin is relatively low in calcium.

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#145

Post by Gareth321 » Sat, Apr 22, 2023, 12:23 PM UTC

Eduard wrote: post #97

roenxi wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The headline seems to be mixing two trends in food randomly. The drop in meat & milk is likely independent of vegan trends - the $ figures are different orders of magnitude. This isn't substitution at all, so there is no reason to think they are interacting. Europe is probably being hit by some sort of hardship right now meaning people can't eat as well as usual. The UK seems to be being hit by an energy crisis for e…

[flagged]

You have a faulty premise. Most meat and dairy is healthy, if consumed in reasonable quantities. The exception is chargrilled red meat, which is correlated with colon cancer. There is evidence that vegan diets are dangerous for children. This study (https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/113/6/1565/6178918?log...), for example, found that vegan children were shorter and had lower bone density. Typical vegan diets lack the following essential nutrients either in part, or entirely:

* A

* B6

* B12

* D

* F

* K2

* CLA

* Carnitine

* Carnosine

* Cholesterol

* CoQ10

* Creatine

* Heme-iron

* Saturated fat

* Taurine

Of course a wise and studious vegan will carefully supplement all of these nutrients in the right balance on the right day. Most will not, and the risk compounds for children. An omnivorous diet is easy to get right, provided one doesn't over-eat.

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#146

Post by brainzap » Sat, Apr 22, 2023, 12:24 PM UTC

Just be aware which company you will give the money, the will optimize, it will have long term impact.

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#147

Post by Gareth321 » Sat, Apr 22, 2023, 12:26 PM UTC

PretzelPirate wrote: post #137

xk_id wrote: post #41

Probably going to be short lasted, as the nutritional deficiencies caused by those products start to produce symptoms. Then plant based diets will become stigmatised. The trend in plant foods to label them with names for animal products is very misleading when the nutritional profiles have absolutely nothing in common. Oat “milk” is basically flavoured water; soy “milk” has a little bit of nutrients in it, but it’s n…

> Probably going to be short lasted, as the nutritional deficiencies caused by those products start to produce symptoms. >... > I know all this because I’ve been vegan for 5+ years and i had to study a lot to >... > The processed products on the market are not good for you. You appear to have a bias and are proclaiming that everyone will soon align with your bias. I've been vegan for over 13 years and eat a ton of pr…

I knew a smoker who lived to 90. I'm not sure how either of our anecdotes are valuable here.

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#148

Post by jiggywiggy » Sat, Apr 22, 2023, 12:26 PM UTC

matsemann wrote: post #69

nunodonato wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what destroys the planet is not meat or non-meat. Its mass production of [insert food here]. I have fun listening the vegan arguments until they are shown how their over-consumption of avocados or soy-based foods has devastating or exploiting effects on ecosystems and people.

But people (including you it seems) don't really understand the scale at which meat production harm the environment compared to vegetables. Yes, every mass production have problems, but with meat you need multiple times the amount of everything, because you first need to produce the food the cow or whatever eats, and then the meat production. For instance, it's multiple times less co2 impact for me eating an avocado…

You can't honestly claim buying avacado's is better for the planet, it's wreaked social & ecological havoc in multiple south American countries with dried up rivers, gangs and lack of diversification of the income of a country.

Next to that it's not always Plants vs meats. In many places only cattle can graze but not much of value can grow.

The CO2 issue is really a terrible comparison. Everything cows put out has been put in from the air. The airplanes are excreting new/old CO2 taken from fossil fuels. Some claim cows are still worse because of methane, but they forget to mention methane only had 12 years lifespan in the atmosphere.

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#149

Post by Eduard » Sat, Apr 22, 2023, 12:26 PM UTC

Amezarak wrote: post #107

Eduard wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The evidence I've seen seems to indicate that meat and dairy are the healthy alternative. They also have centuries of safety data, unlike many (most?) vegan alternatives, which rely heavily on such things as canola oil and have to be engineered. I doubt you'll agree, and I'm sure you'll be able to pull out some studies suggesting otherwise, but perhaps we can agree we shouldn't be making policy decisions that shift t…

> many (most?) vegan alternatives, which rely heavily on such things as canola oil and have to be engineered.

Kinda strawmanny to take/highlight unhealthy food as the vegan alternatives compared.

> perhaps we can agree we shouldn't be making policy decisions that shift the diets of millions of people

The diary and meat industries are prime examples that have profited and am profiting from (influencing) policy decisions. Including: subventions for dumping milk and meat prices; and manipulating dietary recommendations (check "food pyramid" with "lobby"), hence shifting diets of millions of people.

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#150

Post by ahelwer » Sat, Apr 22, 2023, 12:27 PM UTC

saiya-jin wrote: post #143

_cenw wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Milk was heavily subsidized and the prices were pushed to a point where all but the largest scale producers were making losses (~30 cents per liter) where I live whereas the price of plant based milk used to have a huge novely / vegan markup that wasn't based in production cost. The cost of plant based milk is not exactly much less than dairy now, but it is actually cheaper if you go by discount brand prices. That so…

Which animal harm do you mean by having cows for milk? Its easy to buy bio milk which comes from free grazing cows, the cost of it is almost the same as basic milk where I live. I can tell you from my daily personal experience those are some of the happiest non-wild animals you can meet in person. I mean if we move away from it, yes technically there will be 0 harm possible because we will have to kill all the diary…

1. Cows, like humans, only produce milk after giving birth

2. These cows, in order to get pregnant in the first place, are artificially inseminated (and it isn't a very nice process)

3. What do you think happens to the offspring if it's male and thus uneconomical to keep?

The fact that these statements (which are incredibly obvious if you have an eighth grade education or higher) have to be spelled out is a testament to the power of the milk lobby that people think there are some bucolic scenes where farmkids go to milk Bessie each morning, who produces day in and day out without fuss.