'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco • Hacker News Board

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#301

Post by tomp » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 7:00 AM UTC

georgeecollins wrote: post #243

testfoobar wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wealthy suburbs are cutting advanced classes too. Palo Alto Unified School District is dropping dual-enrolled Multivariable Calculus and Linear Algebra (classes taken after AP Calculus BC). https://www.paloaltoonline.com/square/2023/03/29/cancellatio...

My kid is on this track exactly and I think it is a joke that some kids take multivariable calculus or linear algebra in high school. Enrichment and AP has become an arms race for the upper middle class to get their kids into good schools. Realistically, if you are STEM major you probably are going to have to retake these classes anyway. And if you aren't you probably won't need them. I know some kids are really exce…

Math is a hard, abstract, mental discipline, so it’s very plausible that mere exposure to some concepts increases the subsequent understanding.

For example, I was one of the best students in class, yet it took me about a year to really get stochastic processes.

Taking advanced classes could be valuable even if you need to retake them.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#302

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 7:01 AM UTC

adrr wrote: post #288

com2kid wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growing up in Seattle in the 90s, the school district was obviously racist and classist. Advanced programs were in the richer (whiter) neighborhoods and poor kids got to go to schools with police wagons out front. The district charter use to have a line in it saying they had to offer each kid the best education possible. My mother used that line to force the school district to send a taxi to every day to take me up t…

Wasn't Garfield the school that had the advanced classes and the smartest kids in the district that were bused in? Its in central district of Seattle which has the highest population of minorities of any other district.

[deleted]

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#303

Post by alex_sf » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 7:01 AM UTC

jbellis wrote: post #91

PuppyTailWags wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inquiry: small class sizes doesn't work? Could you show me sources/papers/studies/etc? It's is unintuitive, so I'd like to be educated on the factors at play here.

I could easily believe the constraint being the tiny number of k-12 teachers who themselves understand math well enough to teach it like this, no matter how small you'd like to make classes.

That seems likely. Small groups allow for lots of questions and deeper explanations, which plenty of teachers can't provide.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#304

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 7:03 AM UTC

chadcmulligan wrote: post #272

elzbardico wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It must suck to be poor but not belong to any one the correct identity groups nowadays. I am lucky I was born way before that, or I would never have be able to leave poverty.

Maybe the trick is to remove poverty, it's not hard to do

[deleted]

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#305

Post by dilyevsky » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 7:03 AM UTC

cleandreams wrote: post #236

One problem in San Francisco is that the private schools are truly expensive. One good high school, Urban, has a tuition of 55K year. That means it is hard to leave the public system even when it has these awful flaws. San Francisco has never really gone whole hog in trying innovative programs with underachieving programs for minority youth. This trick of trying to drag down high performers to disguise the other fail…

Easy to leave sf tho (in fact, easier than ever). For some reason people there prefer to pay and suffer

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#306

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 7:04 AM UTC

staunton wrote: post #291

com2kid wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're talking about HS intro classes, so my use of Linear Algebra was at the same level as saying, well, Algebra. E.g. Non-math major uses of those terms. Almost any subject in math can go really deep!

Yes. However, I read your post as suggesting (given the quote you respond to) that significant numbers of high school students can/should take university level courses of the same name as their high school courses, presumably because it's the same thing.

[deleted]

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#307

Post by gnicholas » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 7:05 AM UTC

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote: post #293

What's the problem? I remember at the beginning of each school year they gave us math textbooks for the year. I took me a week to read it all and do all the exercises. Today there is internet, Wikipedia, youtube, everything is so much easier.

My kid is currently in elementary school in a desirable district in Menlo Park. On the first day of school, the teacher sent home a list of expectations for what the students should be able to accomplish by year-end for math. There were expectations for multiplication and division problems (x number correct in y minutes, up to 12s). I had my daughter attempt this a couple times that week, and messaged the teacher on Thursday to ask what the process was for demonstrating her proficiency.

We were told that she could not test out of the standard path. She literally had to do 1s and 2s multiplication tables worksheets alongside students who are learning this material. She is allowed, during free time, to do Khan Academy, where she is several grade levels ahead. However, she is so loaded down with busywork that even though it's now April, she still hasn't yet finished all of the multiplication and division worksheets. As a result, there has been very little free time during which she could actually learn anything.

The most frustrating thing is that we're not even looking for the teacher to provide advanced instruction — just to let her go off and do KA on her own.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#308

Post by bigbacaloa » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 7:06 AM UTC

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

Argh this grinds my gears. It’s the education SYSTEM that is wrong. We are working with a 150 year old way of educating kids that does not apply to our culture today. Kids aren’t going to work on the farm or in a factory. They need the math!!! For courses like algebra, etc. kids need support at home from parents. When that support isn’t available (for whatever reason), don’t water down the content for goodness sake.…

Kids don't need "support at home from parents". Very few parents are competent to teach kids math properly (even those who think they are). Kids do better learning from someone else, better still if the someone else is a professional.

Tutoring rarely helps anyone learn as it almost always consists in heavily guided spoon-feeding. Also there are very few good tutors as those who are adequately trained in math to tutor it have much better employment alternatives (including teaching).

In 25 years teaching math in universities I've never seen a student who used a tutor and learned math at the same time. I don't teach my kids math and I don't help them with their homework. What kids need is teachers who know math.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#309

Post by bigbacaloa » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 7:08 AM UTC

killjoywashere wrote: post #111

jeffbee wrote: post #36

It's interesting how path-dependency makes these things seem like controversial reforms, while nearby districts have always done it this way. In Berkeley, for example, there isn't any course called "Algebra I" or II. Through 8th grade there is just math, with no differentiation. Then for 9th grade you can test into an advanced track, and people take either Math 1/2/3 or Advanced Math 1/2/3. In senior year any of thes…

My mom helped write the Texas math curriculum and had high hopes for San Diego Unified when my kids just happened to hit the roll-out years for "common core" (the math 1/2/3 you refer to). She was compelled to admit it was a catastrophe for my daughter and useless for my son. My daughter's story is tragic. I think it basically came down to teachers just not giving a shit about the outcomes and presenting rote lessons…

"Fuck every math department. Every fucking math teacher, professor, and administrator who buys into this math reform shit can fuck right off."

Essentially no mathematician buys into this stuff. In general professional mathematicians and mathematics educators are little involved in the processes that design curricula in public schools. They are simply not included. No one feels more threatened by expertise than education school professors.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#310

Post by gnicholas » Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 7:08 AM UTC

com2kid wrote: post #267

40yearoldman wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a much worse outcome from an equity lens Bingo, that is the issue, everybody is worried about equity. You can't have it, we need meritocracy, equity is just cruel and unusual punishment to future. It is a recipe for driving society to the lowest common denominator. You should demand proper education or your money back. (Side note, this is what we will get 10x with free college, and the guaranteed loans have…

Growing up in Seattle in the 90s, the school district was obviously racist and classist. Advanced programs were in the richer (whiter) neighborhoods and poor kids got to go to schools with police wagons out front. The district charter use to have a line in it saying they had to offer each kid the best education possible. My mother used that line to force the school district to send a taxi to every day to take me up t…

> Growing up in Seattle in the 90s, the school district was obviously racist and classist. Advanced programs were in the richer (whiter) neighborhoods and poor kids got to go to schools with police wagons out front.

I grew up in Sacramento in the 80's/90's, and the best schools were not in the rich/white areas. The top-performing schools were in so-so neighborhoods, and the schools were very diverse. Best of all, you could test in and enroll from anywhere. We literally had a kid in HS who drove down halfway from Tahoe each morning. It wasn't perfect, but it was much, much better than what we have now, as this article shows.