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'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

joannejacobs.com

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Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#41

Post by PuppyTailWags »

boringuser2 wrote: post #19
tiedieconderoga wrote: post #11

It sounds like they tried to set up a large one-size-fits-all program. This might be a good time to bring up Lockhart's Lament , which imagines what artistic education would look like if we treated it like math. https://archive.org/details/AMathematiciansLament Nobody with decision-making power in a school district likes the answer which this paper proposes: very small class sizes.

That answer has also been tried and doesn't work. Let me ask this: what problem are you trying to solve?

Inquiry: small class sizes doesn't work? Could you show me sources/papers/studies/etc? It's is unintuitive, so I'd like to be educated on the factors at play here.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#42

Post by klipt »

boringuser2 wrote: post #19
tiedieconderoga wrote: post #11

It sounds like they tried to set up a large one-size-fits-all program. This might be a good time to bring up Lockhart's Lament , which imagines what artistic education would look like if we treated it like math. https://archive.org/details/AMathematiciansLament Nobody with decision-making power in a school district likes the answer which this paper proposes: very small class sizes.

That answer has also been tried and doesn't work. Let me ask this: what problem are you trying to solve?

> what problem are you trying to solve?

That sounds like a math question! Get 'im, boys!

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#43

Post by zdragnar »

theGnuMe wrote: post #18
foolfoolz wrote: post #14

math is just the beginning of these backwards policies. public schools in california have been removing advanced classes in the name of “equity” for years. the racial enrollment in those classes did not reflect the racial enrollment of the school. the result? parents moving kids to private school. at the school nearest me they kindergarten enrollment is dropping. they are likely going to only have a a single class in…

My contrarian take is that algebra and calculus are pre requisites for for ap calc which is primarily used for elite college admission decisions.

Memorizing things like SOHCAHTOA and FOIL may not be a vital life skill for everyone, but everyone can benefit from the base logical thinking required to identify a variable, break a problem down into steps, plan and execute a solution.

At a bare minimum, the basics of algebra (and to a lesser extent precalc, such as understanding limits and differentials) foster a type of abstract thinking and skills that pretty much anyone can benefit from.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#44

Post by thaumasiotes »

jeffbee wrote: post #36

It's interesting how path-dependency makes these things seem like controversial reforms, while nearby districts have always done it this way. In Berkeley, for example, there isn't any course called "Algebra I" or II. Through 8th grade there is just math, with no differentiation. Then for 9th grade you can test into an advanced track, and people take either Math 1/2/3 or Advanced Math 1/2/3. In senior year any of thes…

> So anyway the point is Berkeley has always done math the "reform" way and its math outcomes are much better in every respect.

If Berkeley's system prevents everyone from taking calculus before 12th grade, it's not getting even halfway decent results. If they're better than the results in San Francisco, all you can learn from that is that Berkeley has extreme problems with student quality, and quality is even lower in San Francisco (or rather, the part of San Francisco that's being measured).

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#45

Post by sp332 »

Invictus0 wrote: post #35
dilippkumar wrote: post #28

Meanwhile, I experienced one of the most unique job interviews at an autonomous driving company just this last week. It was 45 mins of math. Questions ranging from simple algebra to probability theory to physics. And I was applying for an embedded systems position. Boy was I glad that I was good at that kind of math.

What is that supposed to prove? Any type of engineer or mathematician could pass that interview and still not know anything about coding.

Yes, but it’s still pretty common. When I was interviewing for my first job, they were much more impressed with a couple of math puzzles I solved than my actual programming ability.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#46

Post by ethbr0 »

jerojero wrote: post #31
jschveibinz wrote: post #2

Argh this grinds my gears. It’s the education SYSTEM that is wrong. We are working with a 150 year old way of educating kids that does not apply to our culture today. Kids aren’t going to work on the farm or in a factory. They need the math!!! For courses like algebra, etc. kids need support at home from parents. When that support isn’t available (for whatever reason), don’t water down the content for goodness sake.…

I mostly agree with you, except on one aspect. We cannot rely on support from parents, the system we design needs to be thought of with parents out of the equation because in the case of the most vulnerable of kids they will not have parents that can help them. Special tutoring needs to be a part of the system, outsourcing the work will make things cheaper but it will complicate things for those struggling. Kids in n…

Or use school funding to pay students who volunteer to tutor the previous year.

In addition to being a continually renewing supply of teachers, it provides an income stream for those who might really need it and financially incentivizes academic excellence.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#47

Post by thethirdone »

Dalewyn wrote: post #22
jschveibinz wrote: post #2

Argh this grinds my gears. It’s the education SYSTEM that is wrong. We are working with a 150 year old way of educating kids that does not apply to our culture today. Kids aren’t going to work on the farm or in a factory. They need the math!!! For courses like algebra, etc. kids need support at home from parents. When that support isn’t available (for whatever reason), don’t water down the content for goodness sake.…

>Kids aren’t going to work on the farm or in a factory. They need the math!!! As someone who fucking hated and still hates academical math: No, kids do not need math. Not in the sense as taught in schools, anyway. That is a straight waste of precious time. What kids need is broader context and guidance for what math is, how it applies to the world around us, how we can use it, and why it's important. Fuck quadratic e…

> As someone who fucking hated and still hates academical math: No, kids do not need math. Not in the sense as taught in schools, anyway. That is a straight waste of precious time.

Would you mind explaining why you still hate math? It seems like a strange thing to hate except for trauma from school.

Are you referring to K-12 level math only? Math at the college level is very useful. Most of the math I was taught in K-12 was just how to calculate (which is mostly useless in a world with computers) and basic algebra. Basic algebra is useful, but only really as a building block to more powerful math.

> What kids need is broader context and guidance for what math is, how it applies to the world around us, how we can use it, and why it's important. Fuck quadratic equations and counting slices of pie, none of that literal bullshit is useful as taught to kids today.

I completely agree that math curriculum in the US needs a significant overhaul to be more useful, more interesting and a better base for learning advanced mathmatics. Actually coming up with a detailed curriculum that students can follow is pretty difficult.

As someone who found K-12 math really easy and boring, I was very peeved when I found out in college that there is a bunch of fun math that I could have been learning throughout school.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#48

Post by sp332 »

g9yuayon wrote: post #24

> "Families with resources turn to fee-required online algebra 1 courses in eighth grade, outside the public school system, or enroll their kids in private schools," Isn't this obvious result? The Russian School of Mathematics could manage to teach 10-year old kids basic algebra. And there's AOPS, there's Think Academy, and slew of local tutoring schools who can teach kids relatively advanced maths. Let alone many pr…

I think the idea is that if it’s important to rich parents, they will grudgingly fund education for everyone. But as long as they have these outlets where they can just educate their own kids and leave everyone else behind, they will.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#49

Post by edmundsauto »

foolfoolz wrote: post #14

math is just the beginning of these backwards policies. public schools in california have been removing advanced classes in the name of “equity” for years. the racial enrollment in those classes did not reflect the racial enrollment of the school. the result? parents moving kids to private school. at the school nearest me they kindergarten enrollment is dropping. they are likely going to only have a a single class in…

How would you recommend a soon-to-be-parent keep track of what's actually being taught in schools, before their kid is in a given year? I see a lot of headlines but have no idea how this is different or if I should be concerned.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#50

Post by ransom1538 »

Remove the ability to compete in math because you are poor and cannot enroll in private school. Don't allow the poor to do algebra? I left SF (and took my poor kids with me).

However, the SF policy that was truly evil to the poor was randomized school selection. Tell a poor kid in western addition they need to go to school in pacific heights. Tell the pacific heights kids they need to go to school in western addition. So what happens? The poor kids miss school (a lot) since their parents are working crappy jobs for rich people and can't do bus commutes each day. The pacific heights parents just enroll in private school. So tons of schools in SF just close. Awesome work SF. I am confident if you do the exact opposite in all SF policies you would have a great city.

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