Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern • Hacker News Board

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#171

Post by quacked » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 4:00 PM UTC

nirimda wrote: post #136

goodoldneon wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the alternative? Pensions? If your retirement is dependent on a pension, and the pension goes belly up, then you’re left with a fraction of what you planned for (since PGBC doesn’t cover it all)

Ultimately retirement always has the same problem: a retired person wants to consume something today without producing anything today. They can't genuinely save it up: if they packed meat in their 20s and wrote code in their 40s, the meat isn't going to be any good and the code will be deprecated in their 80s. The theory of retirement is that there is some surplus of work being produced which can be redirected to peo…

You are bang on. The question comes down to whether or not you can produce something in exchange for fuel, textiles, shelter, food, medicine, law, and the protection of violent men. If you can't, you have to rely on stashed currency. In the current system, stashing currency slows down the market returns of the people who designed and own the system, so every single facet of life is designed to making stashing currency difficult or ineffective.

The only way to care for unproductive populations is to make personal sacrifices and care for them, at a loss/to the detriment of your own possible financial and lifestyle returns.

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#172

Post by fxtentacle » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 4:00 PM UTC

quacked wrote: post #164

colpabar wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very interesting - did you read this in a book or a blog or something? I’d love to add it to my list.

Honestly, I'm kind of drawing my own conclusions about the financial system based on what I've read. I'm also almost embarrassed to reveal my reading list, as it reveals me as a dilettante, with an undergraduate-sophomore understanding of economics. However, I am very happy and presently financially secure with a good life, so at least my choices about spending aren't completely stupid. I would say these are the sour…

Thanks for sharing this list :)

The beginning of https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/11/hipsters_on_food_sta... seems very promising ...

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#173

Post by kiliantics » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 4:08 PM UTC

quacked wrote: post #76

mschuster91 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not that I disagree with you, but me and many others are planning our retirements accounts around assumptions of 8-9% growth. Actions have consequences. When the entire retirement plan of everyone in the country able to set money aside in a 401k (which isn't applicable for a lot of low-wage employees) is tied to the stock markets, politics is effectively held hostage by the companies in the S&P 500 - politicians si…

When I was young, I assumed the 401k had been around forever. But it was introduced in 1978! We're nearing the end of the 50-year period that the guys who invented it would really need to get staggeringly rich off of the concept, and now that they're getting ready to die everyone's overreliance on the system they set up is causing total gridlock in American life. You can't do ANYTHING that threatens the stock market.…

I have a very similar outlook. It's pretty clear to me that things are moving faster and faster in society and likely not towards anything very good. So it seems naive to expect the old models to continue working.

My "retirement plan" therefore is something between conventional wisdom and prepping. Put some money into savings for emergencies and the remaining possibility that stocks may have some growth in future, but diversify into self-reliance. Buying land and tools that can be used to live off at low cost (i.e. no rent, do my own maintenance, grow some of my food and fuel) and assume that I probably won't ever afford to retire but hopefully will afford to just be able to work less and less over time.

Your last statement is certainly a good and humbling thing to remember. What's the point in amassing all this wealth anyway, since we certainly can't take any of it with us when we go. Giving your children the wealth of knowledge they will likely need in times to come is probably much more practical.

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#174

Post by quacked » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 4:09 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #111

brightball wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just the push back on financial advice by guys like Dave Ramsey is shocking. You tell people to save, avoid debt, don’t buy new cars, etc and people react with almost anger at the suggestion.

It's impossible today to have any sort of major asset without going into debt. Simply said, wages are so low you can't really save up for anything - like what, 60% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck? Back in the Ford era, it was at least commonly understood common sense that people need to be able to afford products. Today? The people are held poor so that they can't afford to strike, much less openly revolt, and…

I agree with you and your parent commenter.

> Today? The people are held poor so that they can't afford to strike, much less openly revolt, and nickeled-and-dimed by the credit industry.

I think it's less that they're held so "poor" (i.e. not having access to a lot of cash) as that they are so completely effectively barred from any kind of sustenance outside of the Debt System that striking would mean the total abandonment of any kind of life they're used to. A real revolution would mean complete blockage from almost every public space and service--unlike the past, there's not anywhere for you to go if you're at odds with the banking system. You'll starve, or you'll be tracked and thrown in jail to suffer the wrath of the stupid, uncivilized drug-addicted gangs. There's not even food in the lands surrounding the towns and cities, it's all single-crop cash yields that get exported.

People are also very carefully manipulated (not necessarily deliberately--it's just the net result of all aggregate manipulation) to be extremely suspicious and cautious of anything that would upset the life they're used to. If you talk to anyone above $140k/year household aggregate about the possibility of living 2-3 families in one home or never travelling by air again they look at you like you're speaking a foreign language.

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#175

Post by Spooky23 » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 4:17 PM UTC

iinnPP wrote: post #68

Spooky23 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember the profit gets realized upfront and benefits the leadership. The disaster is the future guy‘a problem.

Surely related to another story on HN right now about long term and short term estimates. Like these powerful people can't look through history at what comes when the line is finally crossed for enough people.

Yup. It also goes to a lot of an irrational opposition to labor.

People who make decisions like this don’t like the inconvenience of someone questioning her decisions.

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#176

Post by ClumsyPilot » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 4:17 PM UTC

treeman79 wrote: post #119

bombcar wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is one way to be both without causing disaster - defeat the devil of depreciation. If you "invest" in your home/property by making it more durable and better you can have it go up in value and down in costs without needing infinite appreciation of land and structure. For example, if you can spend $20k (random amount) and forever cut your heating bill in half, that's an investment that will continue to pay divid…

If housing is being constructed at the rate of X per month. And population is increasing at X*2 per month. Nothing else matters. House prices will go up overall. Basic supply and demand.

In the past 30 Years Berlin had housing go up in value 10x but population went up 1%.

Look it up

The current financial system created the housing criss.

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#177

Post by ClumsyPilot » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 4:20 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #126

brightball wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The realistic alternative is multigenerational family units sticking together. Grandparents help raise the grand kids instead of day care and baby sitters. Kids take care of their aging parents. Communities pull together to help each other. There are complexities to it, but without a lot of the artificial financial structures that we have in place (loans, insurance, stocks, government programs) that’s probably what s…

Outright impossible to do with the demands of employment these days - young people are expected to go wherever the jobs are, they cannot stick around in some backwater rural town to take care of their parents. Not to mention that people these days don't have anywhere close to enough children, and it's pretty immoral to force people to breed like rabbits for their retirement.

> Outright impossible to do with the demands of employment these days

Trylly modern thinking is, if the Market disagrees with Gravity, then Gravity is wrong.

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#178

Post by goalieca » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 4:23 PM UTC

rinze wrote: post #55

Frost1x wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect we're seeing more and more of these issues due to corner cutting in various industries. Air travel has already been a tight margin industry and take at look at all the air related issues we've seen recently, from FAA systems down to mass cancelations due to infrastructure to the recent runway conflicts and accidents we've seen. Speaking from anecdotal experience, over the years this constant push for more c…

> Speaking from anecdotal experience, over the years this constant push for more complex and efficient work from individuals has lead to me cutting more corners than I ever wanted to and producing more questionable products and services in the name of efficiency. I read a while ago a perfect word to describe this world we're living in: crapitalism.

You’re kidding yourself if you don’t think the soviets or Chinese also don’t cut corners under their economic systems.

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#179

Post by cptskippy » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 4:43 PM UTC

goalieca wrote: post #178

rinze wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Speaking from anecdotal experience, over the years this constant push for more complex and efficient work from individuals has lead to me cutting more corners than I ever wanted to and producing more questionable products and services in the name of efficiency. I read a while ago a perfect word to describe this world we're living in: crapitalism.

You’re kidding yourself if you don’t think the soviets or Chinese also don’t cut corners under their economic systems.

You're kidding yourself if you think the op was suggesting we abandon capitalism. This absolutist mindset has to stop. We can acknowledge our current system is flawed without suggested we abandon it entirely for something else. The reality is that our regulation of our system could be better.

Your binary thinking is lazy and closes you off to the possibility that we could improve our system.

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#180

Post by nebula8804 » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 4:46 PM UTC

quacked wrote: post #171

nirimda wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately retirement always has the same problem: a retired person wants to consume something today without producing anything today. They can't genuinely save it up: if they packed meat in their 20s and wrote code in their 40s, the meat isn't going to be any good and the code will be deprecated in their 80s. The theory of retirement is that there is some surplus of work being produced which can be redirected to peo…

You are bang on. The question comes down to whether or not you can produce something in exchange for fuel, textiles, shelter, food, medicine, law, and the protection of violent men. If you can't, you have to rely on stashed currency. In the current system, stashing currency slows down the market returns of the people who designed and own the system, so every single facet of life is designed to making stashing currenc…

There has got to be another way at beating the system but as it stands how does one get over the fact that inflation would wipe away the value of the currency you are holding? Some argue that bitcoin is the answer but who knows really.