Teaching Good Sex • Hacker News Board

Re: Teaching Good Sex

#91

Post by om01 » Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 1:48 AM UTC

winter_blue wrote: post #79

om01 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What age range are you in? I'm in my mid twenties and feel exactly the same.

I'm in my early twenties. It's not a good feeling to have. Don't let it bother you. Nothing good ever comes out of it. It automatically made me dislike people who've had sex; and until a couple of years, every single friend I had (in college) was a virgin. (I just wouldn't get close to a non-virgin, because of the feeling of hatred his/her's non-virginity brought.) In any case, I would say try to get rid of the feeli…

i think my first problem is that i live in a relatively large city but just can't meet people.

the small group of friends i have are almost all in tech and they don't introduce me to girls.

i just don't seem to meet other people.

Re: Teaching Good Sex

#92

Post by m-photonic » Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 3:34 AM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #87

m-photonic wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Cultures are self-modifying based upon changing conditions. Yes, and like biological evolution, cultural evolution has no foresight. Birth control may have facilitated these cultural changes by removing the most obvious downside to promiscuous sex, but this has next to nothing to do with my argument. The point is that such radical changes in a culture can have unforeseen consequences for our psychology and society.…

> The point is that such radical changes in a culture can have unforeseen consequences for our psychology and society. The old order had unseen consequences for our psychology and society too. The strong taboo against divorce enabled a lot of domestic violence and unhappy marriages, gays faced a lot of serious problems, and infidelity was rampant. Sexual repression itself has psychological consequences. We're still s…

I don't deny that past eras took their hidden psychological tolls as well -- for example, "the problem that has no name" that Betty Friedan wrote about. However, the fact that women's self-reported happiness levels have declined considerably between then and now seems to indicate that our own time may be worse for them in the aggregate. I also question the assumption that all those extra marriages ensured by the non-acceptance of divorce were necessarily unhappy. I've never heard anything about domestic violence or infidelity being more common back then (unlike, say, prostitution, which has experienced a precipitous decline due to the easy availability of casual sex).

Whether or not the old order is unworkable today depends on what you mean by the old order. The culturally-enforced economic dependence of women on men probably would be unworkable, but that's not what I'm arguing for. I just think that people would be happier in a society more oriented towards family formation than our current one. We do have some control over things like this, and part of that control comes in the form of the values we choose to teach to our children -- which, as you may recall, is what this thread's original comment was about.

I'm not saying that the past was better than the present or that I'd like to return to it. I do think that we should stop seeing the past as irredeemably tainted by its oppression of women and minorities (or whatever) and assuming that it has nothing to teach us. All I'm doing is criticizing our present time and its prevailing values.

Re: Teaching Good Sex

#93

Post by philwelch » Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 5:09 AM UTC

m-photonic wrote: post #92

philwelch wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point is that such radical changes in a culture can have unforeseen consequences for our psychology and society. The old order had unseen consequences for our psychology and society too. The strong taboo against divorce enabled a lot of domestic violence and unhappy marriages, gays faced a lot of serious problems, and infidelity was rampant. Sexual repression itself has psychological consequences. We're still s…

I don't deny that past eras took their hidden psychological tolls as well -- for example, "the problem that has no name" that Betty Friedan wrote about. However, the fact that women's self-reported happiness levels have declined considerably between then and now seems to indicate that our own time may be worse for them in the aggregate. I also question the assumption that all those extra marriages ensured by the non-…

(This is getting rather long and tangential. Would you be interested in continuing it via email? My address is in my HN profile.)

> women's self-reported happiness levels

There's that word, "self-reported". There are a lot of pitfalls to self-reported data, and many of them apply here. Women used to be openly discouraged from displaying negative emotion because it would make them unattractive, or bad wives.

Arguing in the alternative, it's also inconsistent that you mention this point in the first place, because of your earlier criticisms of "hedonism". Career-focused today might be lead busier, more stressful lives compared to the lives of housewives, which is a loss for hedonism and perhaps a loss for "self-reported happiness", but doesn't it fulfill higher virtues?

> I also question the assumption that all those extra marriages ensured by the non-acceptance of divorce were necessarily unhappy.

I don't think they were necessarily unhappy either, but there was simply no good, acceptable outlet for the ones that were abusive or unhappy.

> The culturally-enforced economic dependence of women on men probably would be unworkable, but that's not what I'm arguing for.

One of the reasons women can have careers is because they can delay marriage, and one of the reasons women can delay marriage is because there are socially acceptable sexual outlets other than marriage.

> I just think that people would be happier in a society more oriented towards family formation than our current one.

Among people I've known, the ones who were having premarital sex between 16 and 25 still got married and had kids between 21 and 30. Having kids seems to be something people naturally want--you don't have to trick them into it by trying to withhold sex from them.

I guess you could add social pressure for people to have kids, so people who didn't actually want kids felt forced into having them anyway. But I've known people who were raised by parents who didn't actually want kids, and they seem more adamant than me that people shouldn't have kids unless they really want them. That's what it's really about--personal freedom.

> All I'm doing is criticizing our present time and its prevailing values.

No, see, you're criticizing it from the perspective of the past, and you are saying the past was better at least in some ways if not in others. I'm trying to show that the "bad" things about the past--the things we can agree were bad--are intricately linked with what you think are the "good" parts. And I'm criticizing our present time and its prevailing values too, but from the perspective of a possible future where everyone is perfectly okay with consenting adults safely doing whatever they want with each other.

Re: Teaching Good Sex

#94

Post by ajays » Fri, Nov 18, 2011, 7:58 AM UTC

winter_blue wrote: post #24

veidr wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting. Who on earth is the hatred directed toward?

towards those getting laid.. I know it's stupid, but I think in the past part of it arose from just knowing that they were doing it, and I as a geek was not going to get it. I strongly thought in the past that because I was nerdy, I was automatically despised by girls. I know that's not completely true now, but there is a little bit of truth to it. But to reiterate, I think what gave me this feeling, was thinking tha…

Such feelings are natural. It used to bother me a lot too that others were getting laid, and I wasn't. Then, after some trial-and-error, I was able to "crack" the womens' code, in the sense that I was able to understand where they were coming from, and be very comfortable around them. That led to the pendulum swinging (pardon the pun) to the other extreme: I was getting more tail than any of the jocks I knew. It helped that I got into a better shape, dressed better and was able to hold a conversation with a woman without stuttering.

Just like any other complex system, it takes time and effort to figure out women (and I say this with all the respect to women, from a male nerd's viewpoint). It also involves a lot of failure and disappointment in the beginning; but one does (and must) get used to that in order to make progress. Don't let rejection dampen your enthusiasm.

Re: Teaching Good Sex

#95

Post by sn » Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 6:06 AM UTC

om01 wrote: post #91

winter_blue wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in my early twenties. It's not a good feeling to have. Don't let it bother you. Nothing good ever comes out of it. It automatically made me dislike people who've had sex; and until a couple of years, every single friend I had (in college) was a virgin. (I just wouldn't get close to a non-virgin, because of the feeling of hatred his/her's non-virginity brought.) In any case, I would say try to get rid of the feeli…

i think my first problem is that i live in a relatively large city but just can't meet people. the small group of friends i have are almost all in tech and they don't introduce me to girls. i just don't seem to meet other people.

meetup.com.

Re: Teaching Good Sex

#96

Post by sn » Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 6:08 AM UTC

gaelian wrote: post #80

akmiller wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's less about pure education and more about a safe, controlled environment to have open and honest communication. As you suggest it's a very complex subject with many questions having no generally applicable answers. However, being able to discuss such things between the sexes and with some mature guidance can remove a lot of humility and hopefully provide at least a little enlightenment. That being said, I…

Very much agreed. But I also think we're looking at the problem in a somewhat more isolated context than would be required to effect true improvement. By which I mean, if we are to achieve a safe, controlled environment to have open and honest communication about sex that includes some mature guidance, then a more systemic change in English speaking society as a whole is required. So rather than changes being effecte…

Do you have specific examples?

Re: Teaching Good Sex

#97

Post by sn » Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 6:31 AM UTC

ajays wrote: post #94

winter_blue wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

towards those getting laid.. I know it's stupid, but I think in the past part of it arose from just knowing that they were doing it, and I as a geek was not going to get it. I strongly thought in the past that because I was nerdy, I was automatically despised by girls. I know that's not completely true now, but there is a little bit of truth to it. But to reiterate, I think what gave me this feeling, was thinking tha…

Such feelings are natural. It used to bother me a lot too that others were getting laid, and I wasn't. Then, after some trial-and-error, I was able to "crack" the womens' code, in the sense that I was able to understand where they were coming from, and be very comfortable around them. That led to the pendulum swinging (pardon the pun) to the other extreme: I was getting more tail than any of the jocks I knew. It help…

It took me a long time to understand too.

Re: Teaching Good Sex

#98

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 6:53 AM UTC

kahawe wrote: post #82

yummyfajitas wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And on gold-digging women: they should be sufficiently easy to spot... I don't think so. In general, women are masters of deception (by male geek standards) and you shouldn't expect to beat them at their own game. In my experience, the only reliable way to spot a golddigger is to reveal that you are broke and have no desire to change this.

Oh heavens no, I don't even aspire to match half of the social and manipulative skills women seem to be so born with. One thing I think I have figured out is weighing actions vs. words. And the real gold-diggers usually reveal themselves rather quickly because it is only efficient for them to get things to "being paid" mode as soon as possible. But it will take (lots of) reflective thinking to see it for what it is,…

[deleted]

Re: Teaching Good Sex

#99

Post by nackl » Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 6:53 AM UTC

kahawe wrote: post #82

yummyfajitas wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And on gold-digging women: they should be sufficiently easy to spot... I don't think so. In general, women are masters of deception (by male geek standards) and you shouldn't expect to beat them at their own game. In my experience, the only reliable way to spot a golddigger is to reveal that you are broke and have no desire to change this.

Oh heavens no, I don't even aspire to match half of the social and manipulative skills women seem to be so born with. One thing I think I have figured out is weighing actions vs. words. And the real gold-diggers usually reveal themselves rather quickly because it is only efficient for them to get things to "being paid" mode as soon as possible. But it will take (lots of) reflective thinking to see it for what it is,…

They must have run out of the social and manipulative skills handout for the women I know.

Re: Teaching Good Sex

#100

Post by nackl » Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 7:03 AM UTC

sheepshankl wrote: post #67

davidhansen wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how old you are, but be prepared to battle this for much of your life. At 32, I would have hoped to excise the latent misogyny and distrust of former jocks that my adolescent experiences burned into me, but it has not abated. I expect this to last a lifetime, and my only defense is to continue working on discarding cached thoughts( per the LessWrong folks )whenever they are recognized. The real kicker is…

The day you realize a woman is sleeping with you merely as a chore to gain access to resources - well, let's just say that's not a very good day. It only makes sense that women are genetically programmed to seek males who can be good providers for their children. You are to be complimented for your success. You must take measures (i.e., condoms, etc.) to ensure you are not entrapped however. If you desire offspring,…

Women also poke holes in condoms because they want to entrap the all the men they mate with. Make sure you bring your own condoms instead of using ones she gives you.

If she wears a short skirt or a low cut top that means she wants to have sex outside your relationship so avoid women who are wearing those. It is also a good idea to make sure the woman you intend to have offspring with is not pursuing sex outside the relationship by monitoring her communications. And any close male friends are a cause for concern so be sure to accompany her any time she visits them.