Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges • Hacker News Board

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#221

Post by stevekemp » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:47 PM UTC

PainfullyNormal wrote: post #24

donatj wrote: post #5

> No need to waste time with 7 rounds of interviewing only to find out the salary is 50% of what I currently make. You can just ask at the end of the first interview. I've never had a problem doing so.

That's not the point. Companies that don't list a salary range aren't being competitive. I can only apply to so many jobs at once, so I'm going to pick off the listings that list a salary range I want and apply to those first (and probably only).

Exactly. I don't have the patience or juggling skills to apply to too many companies at the same time.

Whenever I've been looking for work I'll google, search linkedin, etc, and pick the top three/four companies that seem interesting. I exclude any that don't include a salary range, and any which have "common knowledge" shared locally about them being bad companies.

For the past few years that's been sufficient, sometimes I get an offer and accept, sometimes I have to choose between two offers. I've not even always taken the higher offers, because money is important, but it's not the only thing that matters when picking a job.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#222

Post by goodpoint » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:47 PM UTC

srvmshr wrote: post #119

lotsofpulp wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has nothing to do with culture. It is simply a reflection of the supply demand curves for labor giving labor buyers much more negotiating power.

But Japan has always been a tech labor-shortage economy. That should incentivize employers to be advertising compensation. I am probably understanding your answer wrong. Could you please elaborate?

> Japan has always been a tech labor-shortage economy

The meagre salaries tell a different story.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#223

Post by asdff » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:48 PM UTC

Victerius wrote: post #112

Tao3300 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likewise, I have a minimum salary for which I will move giant hunks of manure with my bare hands and love it so much I'll sing arias about it while I do so. It's a really big number, but I assure you it exists.

I'll bite. Would you take the job for $300 000?

These comments are absurd considering farmhands get paid minimum wage to shovel huge pieces of manure

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#224

Post by godelski » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:48 PM UTC

codegeek wrote: post #214

godelski wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got a solution. > Position pays 100k+ depending on experience. Solved. Or potentially > Position pays 100k-130k+, depending on experience If a company isn't getting applicants, boost that baseline.

Most candidates overestimate their ability. No one would like to hear that they should get the lower end of the range because well they didn't deserve the higher range.

> Position pays 80-130k+ depending on experience but no one actually makes under 100k and 80 is only here to make you feel better

Solved.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#225

Post by joezydeco » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:48 PM UTC

bertil wrote: post #189

joezydeco wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the cut of your jib, I'm going to try that with unsolicited recruiters for a while and see what happens. I've been getting pings over the last two years and if I can get them to a range, it's routinely 80% of my current comp and that never changes. Nobody is getting the idea that you need something to attract talent away from a current job to hire for a new one. There's no salesmanship in this at all.

I’ve had many recruiters think they can try to sell me on the job _after_ I’ve told them it would be half of my compensation… And, look, I’d love to join a Series A start-up that offers a ton of early stock in a promising idea; I’m typically the rare profile that would happily discuss that, with a spreadsheet and all. But those are almost always meat-by-the-slice “agencies” with no bonus structure. I’m really taken a…

A good hunk of them are just lazy.

Just yesterday I had a lackluster job description sent to me by someone I've talked to before, and my rejection was just a boring. He had a small amount of motivation to ask what was wrong and I told him there's nothing in this JD that is interesting at all.

His response: "Well, that's what the client sent to me."

What the fuck value are you adding to this transaction at all, then?

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#226

Post by pessimizer » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:48 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #139

srvmshr wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Japan has always been a tech labor-shortage economy. That should incentivize employers to be advertising compensation. I am probably understanding your answer wrong. Could you please elaborate?

The evidence points to the assumption of a shortage being wrong. By definition, a shortage of labor sellers means labor sellers have an advantage in negotiations. From what I understand about Japan, even in the tech sector, the quality of life for labor sellers is pretty bad with long hours and not much room for high pay. I imagine if Japanese tech workers has the option of working for employers with compensation off…

> By definition, a shortage of labor sellers means labor sellers have an advantage in negotiations.

This is untrue. 1) Employers have more information about the current situation than applicants, and 2) employers collude, applicants don't.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#227

Post by commandlinefan » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:48 PM UTC

Let's be honest about salary ranges, though - posting two different numbers is a meaningless nod to convention. Everybody who applies ignores the low number and expects the high number (maybe a little more, because they're "that good").

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#228

Post by nsxwolf » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:48 PM UTC

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

I have salary requirements that have to be met, full stop, or I cannot waste my time talking to you. There is nothing you can do to convince me to go below my bottom line. I have bills to pay and my family is used to a particular lifestyle. "Hey kids, you're going to public school next year so daddy can chase a dream he had in his early 20s!" ain't gonna fly.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#229

Post by goodpoint » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:49 PM UTC

codegeek wrote: post #64

praptak wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like having to ask.

Don't ask. Tell. "Hey just to ensure that we are on the same page, I am ideally looking for a minimum of $xyz/year. Is that in the range for this role ?". Then pause and wait for their response.

NEVER mention your minimum. If anything you should highball.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#230

Post by srvmshr » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:49 PM UTC

cultofmetatron wrote: post #178

srvmshr wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe its a cultural thing, but doing that in a Japanese/Asian setup is a big red flag - to the point my recruiter wife has to warn foreign nationals they may not hear back from the company anymore. Salary negotiation is kept at the very last step. Personally I feel it is such a waste of time to discover if the salary doesn't meet your expectations after 3-5 rounds of song & dance.

given the sterotype of the overworked salary man, its probably a red flag in that the red flag is "expects to be treated like a human being."

Okay here's the thing: Let me add some details to dispell that "part-myth".

Salarymen do have long working hours & have to go along with those office drinking parties etc. But at the same time, they are treated more personally than an American enterprise employee would. Parents sick in old age? Many companies would give cash incentives to support. Buying a house? CEO might extend you a personal credit line or speak to his banker buddy to give you extremely favorable terms. Got married or had a child? Employers (not coworkers) would give you off-days & some cash/gifts to newborn. Did extremely well a financial quarter? You get a bonus "red letter" (typically a cheque or cash of good amount) or a paid short vacation. If you have passed your probation, Japanese companies will bend over their back to retain you (retrain, reassign under different manager etc.) rather than outright fire you (although thats slowly changing with the economy shrink)

Traditional Japanese companies treat their employees as half families. Managers tend to be more hands-on as a patriarch for the good or the bad. So while we concentrate mostly on the bad parts, we often overlook the good parts too.

I am in no way advocating their culture. Many things desperately need change. But if salaryman situation was so miserable, it would have changed a lot of things long time ago. No matter where we're born - freedom & comfort are valuable for everyone.