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Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

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Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#161

Post by joezydeco »

bertil wrote: post #138

I could try to ask companies to list their salary but it’s a fight I’m not going to win, at least not alone. So instead, I stay mine. The vast majority of any applications for me for the last 10 years have started with an incoming message from a recruiter (usually external, very often not engaged by the company). To filter out irrelevant conversations, I respond “Thank you for your interest” and I immediately put: *…

I like the cut of your jib, I'm going to try that with unsolicited recruiters for a while and see what happens.

I've been getting pings over the last two years and if I can get them to a range, it's routinely 80% of my current comp and that never changes. Nobody is getting the idea that you need something to attract talent away from a current job to hire for a new one. There's no salesmanship in this at all.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#162

Post by BlargMcLarg »

ipaddr wrote: post #154
BlargMcLarg wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Of the top reasons people are happy at work, salary is way down on the list. You're conflating multiple things here. People aren't focusing on money because it's the most important part. They focus on money because it's one of the few things that's relatively easy to make tangible ahead of time. Similar goes for things like remote/hybrid, secondary benefits, etc. Many elements on that list, while important, are incr…

Getting that good work life balance issue settled usually takes 2 or 3 rounds to pry some useful info out.

Great. We're talking about responding to an ad. Your response equates to just dealing with 1-4 hours of work, often requiring some juggling from the candidate's side (= more time), just to get some of the most important information.

Not only are you supporting my argument, you're also showcasing how ridiculously inefficient the hiring process is from the candidate's side. Without it being obvious whether this is a net gain for the employer.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#163

Post by spongechameleon »

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

As far as day-to-day satisfaction on the job, sure, salary could be way down the list compared to company culture and work/life balance. But I think we should acknowledge that salary is the only reason any of us work at all. If the salary is bad everything else will crumble around it regardless of how excellent culture and work/life balance are. If the salary is good there's no guarantees, but there's at least the potential for on the job satisfaction. Salary is the foundation. The exception to this is charity work for purely mission driven work, but that's not the work context for the majority of people.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#164

Post by andrewmutz »

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

> with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges.

This makes sense to me. The strongest engineers are those who really love the work and enjoy building software systems. They tend to have active software side projects outside of work. They tend to be the sort who want to be paid well, but prioritize places where they can learn new things, learn from others and be excited. They want to enjoy coming to work each day and grow as an engineer.

The engineers I know who are the most compensation-oriented, on the other hand, seem to think of work as mostly about the paychecks. They aren't bad engineers, but they don't seem to love the craft as much as the great engineers. If your relationship with the industry is transactional ("I write code and you give me money"), you rarely develop into a great software engineer

It doesn't surprise me that the strongest applicants are the ones who aren't prioritizing comp in the decision-making.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#166

Post by bena »

ivraatiems wrote: post #43
cygned wrote: post #37

We don’t post salary ranges right now. We are a small firm and cannot keep up with the salaries from enterprises in our area. We are looking for (and finding) candidates that are willing to sacrifice parts of their salary for 100% remote, flexible work time, PTO and others. We decided to screen applicants in an informal phone call and discuss salary options at the end, after they had a first impression of how we are…

Why not post the range and say what you just said?

I think I can see a scenario.

You think you're hot shit on a silver platter. You apply for jobs with high TC listed and others which you believe will also be high TC based on... reasons, even though they don't list their salary ranges.

You get callbacks from some of the high TC positions you applied for. You also get callbacks from the non-listed salary positions. Cool. None of the highest, none of your first choices, but whatever, an interview is an interview.

You go through the processed and find out a lot of the non-listed positions have TCs much lower than you were hoping for. TCs so low, you wouldn't have considered the job if you had known. Whatever, you'll just ghost them. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

But then the days stretch on and the only positions submitting offers are the low TC jobs you applied for. You take the blow to your ego along with the job. Gotta pay those bills.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#167

Post by mlyle »

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

> If your primary reason for responding to an ad is based upon salary you are not going to be happy where you work.

Look, it doesn't make sense to respond to ads for positions where there's no reasonable way that I'd accept the job based on comp.

For the most part, I've been an entrepreneur / my own boss. But I remember 2 interview processes where money was talked about too late (one for a consulting job, and one for a full time position) and the offer was abusively low. I think there was the hope that I would try to justify the sunk cost of the interviewing process by taking the deal.

There's a lot of talk that not posting ranges can contribute to discriminatory practices. I think this could be true -- I think of wife's experience as she was entering the workforce. She was president of the mech-eng honor society, magna cum laude from a highly ranked university, with better work experience than most graduates. Multiple employers gave her absurdly lowball offers after she interviewed-- literally half of the average going rate for new grads-- perhaps mistaking her warmness for being willing to roll over and not negotiate. (She ultimately got a gig in the upper quartile).

P.S. Now I make about 3-6% of what I could make elsewhere-- I'm a middle school teacher. There was no need to surprise me with the number at the end to get me to take this offer. Salary isn't the end-all, be-all, but keeping it opaque concentrates too much power with the employer and that power is often used for dubious ends.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#168

Post by hiq »

legitster wrote: post #104
kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

>Of the top reasons people are happy at work, salary is way down on the list. [0] It is important, it makes it possible to pay bills, but it isn't what makes people happy. This is bad analysis. Employees will already self-select based on pay. I would bet you real money right now that if you polled employees as they left the company what their future salary is going to be, the majority will be making more.

This. There's a huge selection bias: people saying that they're (un)happy with this or that have already accepted the position they're in, so they were at least moderately happy with their compensation when they started, while they had mostly no idea about the other aspects of the job.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#169

Post by projectazorian »

lowbloodsugar wrote: post #79
projectazorian wrote: post #39

Just ask in the initial phone screen. Say you won't entertain roles below and you don't want to waste everyone's time. Usually recruiters appreciate this and if they can't give you the number themselves they will check with the hiring manager. Some people say this reduces your negotiating leverage because it reveals your hand too much. I try to get around this by making clear it's a minimum, not a maximum, and anythi…

Some people say this because it's true. This is an ineffective negotiating tactic. You shouldn't accept anything less than stellar equity/benefits/WLB. But if you do, now you are in the position of saying "Well, your equity/benefits/WLB suck, so I want more money." There's no positive way to spin that. You look like an ass and are negotiating from weakness. I tell them exactly what number I'm looking for. Saves every…

> But if you do, now you are in the position of saying "Well, your equity/benefits/WLB suck, so I want more money."

"The equity/benefits/WLB you describe aren't consistent with what I was expecting. I'll need higher base if this is going to work."

Salary is not the only part of a compensation package. If other parts of the package pencil out, great, if not, you're within your right to ask for more salary. Some employers have more flexibility on salary, others might be more flexible in other areas.

This is a very common negotiating technique; if you can't reach agreement on one point, expand the negotiating space.

Anyone who would be offended by the above worth working with anyway.

> There's no positive way to spin that. You look like an ass and are negotiating from weakness.

If you think negotiation is about what party can project dominance the most, you don't have a clue about negotiation. You're not haggling for cab fare, you're establishing the terms of a relationship that will continue for years if things go well, and in those situations you want to be collaborative rather than adversarial. This will pay dividends down the road.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#170

Post by Justsignedup »

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

I am a bit skeptical.

Paying far below the market doesn't necessarily make you a worse or better place to work for... but typically while salary won't improve how things go in a company... they are a core reason why I am even there...

Like... The comfort and performance of a car will not be affected by the price. I can love a certain car, even if it is cheaper or 20k over what it should cost. That won't matter. But I won't buy the car if I am not comfortable paying for it. The car would be just as great, but if it was out of my price range, I am still suffering for it.

Now cars are priced relatively close to their actual worth, and all car prices are well known vs hidden behind 7 hours of interviews and "don't talk about your salary" policies. So this is the playing field we're creating with salaries being up-front.

I have turned down many job interviews because I said my salary requirements during our opening call. Sure it wasn't part of the posting, but it better be an early conversation otherwise why would I leave a comfortable job for a lower pay?

When people respond to online job postings, it is often because they are already really unhappy, or need a job because they lost theirs, so the numbers may be skewed due to needs.

So what is my point? idk... probably recruiter outreach should have salary info. For job postings... my bet is recruiters know response rates better than I do. :P

Edit: Post interviews, I have taken lower paying job offers compared to other offers because after talking to the teams I predicted the money was worth losing over happiness. So money is certainly isn't everything, but it is an important aspect. I assure you I will deal with extra stress for 500k because I know at home I'll get the support needed and the extra money will change our lives. But would I do the same for 10k? hell no.

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