Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges • Hacker News Board

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#211

Post by lotsofpulp » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:45 PM UTC

srvmshr wrote: post #192

lotsofpulp wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The evidence points to the assumption of a shortage being wrong. By definition, a shortage of labor sellers means labor sellers have an advantage in negotiations. From what I understand about Japan, even in the tech sector, the quality of life for labor sellers is pretty bad with long hours and not much room for high pay. I imagine if Japanese tech workers has the option of working for employers with compensation off…

> And even with the terrible quality of life they have now, the Japanese world keeps spinning So it boils down to the working culture, no? The one I referenced initially.. My wife is interviewing for Oracle HR right now (mostly done deal). She is due for the final interview tomorrow. The offer has still not mentioned her compensation yet - although from hearsay she knows a ballpark. It seems even American companies p…

Suppose a Japanese bank had a technical problem that only one person could fix and it had brought down their whole system and they were losing tons of money.

Culture would take a backseat and the Japanese execs would start talking compensation real fast.

Clearly whoever is in charge of hiring at Oracle for your wife’s position is betting that your wife will not mind waiting to discuss compensation and/or they can find someone else if your wife does bring it up. Simultaneously, your wife is betting that she cannot find another position if she brings up compensation at a point that she thinks could cost her the offer.

If your wife was indispensable to Oracle HR, and she wanted to bet on that, there is no reason she cannot start talking compensation whenever she wants. Or if she has alternatives that are willing to talk compensation, then she can skip Oracle HR and move on to better options.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#212

Post by taude » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:45 PM UTC

alexfromapex wrote: post #200

Or the hiring engineers are holding candidates to insanely high standards that they themselves couldn’t be held to. I did a 4.5 hour interview with Capital One where I had to design a full system diagram from a text description. I thought I did great on it because I’ve done it several times in previous roles for real. Then with a different interviewer I had to solve a Python challenge which I passed and then was aske…

Dont mold your interview process after a FAANG, if you're not going to offer FAANG money and incentives.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#213

Post by xena » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:46 PM UTC

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

Money does not buy happiness, but money enables me to do things that make me happy

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#214

Post by codegeek » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:46 PM UTC

godelski wrote: post #207

websap wrote: post #180

Listing salary ranges is bad for employees because it limits upside from negotiation. Like everything it's just a trade-off between capping your downside and limiting your upside.

I got a solution. > Position pays 100k+ depending on experience. Solved. Or potentially > Position pays 100k-130k+, depending on experience If a company isn't getting applicants, boost that baseline.

Most candidates overestimate their ability. No one would like to hear that they should get the lower end of the range because well they didn't deserve the higher range.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#215

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:46 PM UTC

Tao3300 wrote: post #73

ThalesX wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of the top reasons people are happy at work, salary is way down on the list. > It is important, it makes it possible to pay bills, but it isn't what makes people happy. Meaning, if you are looking for a place you will enjoy working, do not start with salary. This feels strange to me… I have a minimum salary for which I wouldn’t consider working for a company even if they offered me flying rainbow unicorns. It’s not…

Likewise, I have a minimum salary for which I will move giant hunks of manure with my bare hands and love it so much I'll sing arias about it while I do so. It's a really big number, but I assure you it exists.

[deleted]

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#216

Post by gwbas1c » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:46 PM UTC

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

> Meaning, if you are looking for a place you will enjoy working, do not start with salary.

Assuming you're discussing engineering roles, this is a dangerous attitude.

Engineering is an economic force multiplier; meaning, the monetary value of the results is worth many multiples of the monetary value of the engineering labor put in.

Seeking a fair salary upfront ensures a few things. One of the most important is the value of the result of the labor. As a top software engineer; I only want to work on products that are significantly valuable. (And then I want my fair share of the profits, too.)

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#217

Post by jen20 » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:46 PM UTC

kif wrote: post #158

For some companies, giving a compensation range, e.g. $150k-$200k, would most likely create turmoil internally. Imagine Bob has many years in that role, and makes $160k. If I were Bob, I'd have a conversation with HR as to why I'm on the low end of the range.

Good. That’s what it should do.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#218

Post by pridkett » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:47 PM UTC

alexfromapex wrote: post #200

Or the hiring engineers are holding candidates to insanely high standards that they themselves couldn’t be held to. I did a 4.5 hour interview with Capital One where I had to design a full system diagram from a text description. I thought I did great on it because I’ve done it several times in previous roles for real. Then with a different interviewer I had to solve a Python challenge which I passed and then was aske…

That’s basically the same process that Capital One has had for hiring for years. It doesn’t seem like that was tweaked because of the pandemic and remote work.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#219

Post by Markoff » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:47 PM UTC

johnchristopher wrote: post #130

That title is misleading. Reading that blog post it should really be "Tell HN: You can't hire me because you don't post salary ranges" or "Tell HN: I don't apply for jobs without salary ranges".

isn't it same any way you look at it?

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#220

Post by codefreeordie » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:47 PM UTC

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

> If your primary reason for responding to an ad is based upon salary you are not going to be happy where you work. I promise.

This is true, but at the same time, if you're trying to hire people for $X, and I currently make $3X or more, it is probably not worthwhile for us to spend much time exploring working together.

For the most part, I can tell whether you're likely to be vaguely close based on discussing the role with you. It's a bit of a signaling game, but I can usually tell if we're at least kinda-sorta close -- but at the same time I've definitely gotten well into the process with folks only to discover that we're so far apart that it doesn't matter what the role or company is like.