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Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

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Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#571

Post by weberer »

catchmilk wrote: post #491
weberer wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is certainly not on Russia's side in this conflict. https://hungarytoday.hu/orban-hungary-ukraine-conflict-eu/

This is an old article (22/2). Ever since, he has several times refused to back the EU on sanctions and instead adopted a very selfish/nationalist stance. He went as far as to declare Zelensky an opponent after winning the election[0]. Hungary is on the wrong side of the conflict at this point in history. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60977917

Hungary has backed all sanctions against Russia except oil, which Hungary relies too heavily on. So far, Hungary has accepted 700,000 refugees from Ukraine. There's really no evidence that he supports Russia's invasion, or that he would veto Finland and Sweden's application to NATO. It really seems like some people here don't like him due to unrelated policy reasons and just want to drum up negative sentiment.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#572

Post by truffdog »

helloworld11 wrote: post #281
donthellbanme wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

But will Russia really win? As of the last that I saw, Ukraine was doing remarkably well in getting Russian forces to pull back from many positions they initially captured, and what they have captured has cost them considerably. A German invasion of Poland this is definitely not in terms of agility. It's more like Italy's invasion of Greece, but without a bigger power to step in and take the reins. Putin can try othe…

Well- if they cement their hold on the separatist regions, expand them a little, and ensure a fresh water supply for Crimea, they can probably spin it as a win and declare victory.

Ukraine is also suffering a lot from this war, even if they don't mention it much. They will feel a lot of pressure to accept a smaller Ukraine in exchange for peace.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#573

Post by selimthegrim »

aa-jv wrote: post #198
stoltzmann wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a single fact to back up your accusation of CIA meddling with NATO membership? Your link does not prove that. Also, you have not provided any sources on the dismissal of reasons for joining NATO. Please do link to them if you have any evidence. As is, it looks like you're parroting anti-NATO propaganda - it seems you're acting in bad faith. Are you paid for by the Russians?

The existence of GLADIO is all the evidence one needs. Its purpose is to ensure any and all impediments to the expansion of NATO are removed. The "Ma' Russians!" claim is not worth responding to, but I'm an Australian, have lived for decades in the US and in Eastern Europe, and I no longer play the nationalist game. I've been following the Wests' war crimes and crimes against humanity since 9/11, which has led me to…

Compare Iraq and Ukraine as countries. Are they remotely comparable as aggressors under international law? Recall both USSR and former SFRY sold weapons by the boatload to Iraq.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#574

Post by [deleted] »

catchmilk wrote: post #491
weberer wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is certainly not on Russia's side in this conflict. https://hungarytoday.hu/orban-hungary-ukraine-conflict-eu/

This is an old article (22/2). Ever since, he has several times refused to back the EU on sanctions and instead adopted a very selfish/nationalist stance. He went as far as to declare Zelensky an opponent after winning the election[0]. Hungary is on the wrong side of the conflict at this point in history. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60977917

[deleted]

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#575

Post by rich_sasha »

jcranberry wrote: post #557
rich_sasha wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vetos are somewhat overrated. Agents may have the right to veto, but might not have the power to deal with the consequences. Russia has a UN veto and uses it, because they can weather the consequences. Could Hungary piss off all of its allies, trade partners, basically everyone but Russia? Doubtful. Hungary is playing a skillful, if somewhat devious, game of balancing between Russia and the West. But an outright FU t…

What would be realistic fallout from vetoing their application?

Well, plenty of potential things. In strictly defence terms, they buy weaponry from US and Germany. Hungarian air force operates Swedish Gripen fighters and thus most likely relies on Sweden at least for spare parts (which military jets need lots of) so here's another pressure point. They are big beneficiaries of EU funding (not a NATO thing but this is all intertwined) and already at odds with EU rules, which could push them towards not getting the funding - there are plenty of reasons to implement that already, just lacking political will right now. They can find themselves sidelined for new EU spending, political nominations, and so on.

The question would of course be if EU/NATO want to do that. It's part of the usual political horse-trading game.

For sure, in the extreme scenario if US/EU/main partners really wanted Finland and Sweden to join and Hungary vetoed, it could be made to pay an unaffordable price.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#576

Post by tsimionescu »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #552
tsimionescu wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the US alone investing 40 billion dollars in the war, they're simply wrong if they don't see it this way.

As I have always understood the concept of proxy war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_war there should be another party behind Russia prompting it's actions (since it attacked)

My understanding is that a proxy war requires at least one of the belligerents to be acting through a proxy, not necessarily both. For example, here is a wiki page [0] about the Iran-Israel proxy conflict/war, which is fought between Israeli and Palestinian combatants.

Either way, this is a just a matter of how you choose to define the term.

The important point that I'm trying to make is that, while Ukraine is of course fighting for its own sake (not trying to claim here they are only a puppet or something - as is Palestine in the other example), it's also clear that NATO is massively involved in the conflict, with its own aims for the war which may or may not be entirely aligned with Ukraine's (or Ukrainians') best interests.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Israel_proxy_co...

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#577

Post by CRConrad »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #409
2Gkashmiri wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you sure? https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/4/22960739/russia-internet-b... "Russia says it's blocking Facebook in alarming new censorship push" blocking facebook is censorship but blocking RT is defending free speech? nice

Is the implication that Facebook is also a propaganda outlet? That is sort of funny: RT and Facebook considered similar entities

> That is sort of funny: RT and Facebook considered similar entities

Well... If nothing else, both are huge spreaders of Russian propaganda. But yeah, you're right, it is funny: Maybe both should be banned in the West.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#578

Post by belter »

ericmay wrote: post #563
belter wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a strange choice to spend 400% your annual overall defense budget on a new unproven system.

> on a new unproven system. How are you qualifying whether or not this system is proven?

Never seen combat and when trying to do a dogfight with a F16 lost. This was promptly followed by a series of articles from US defense industry stating that nowadays dogfights don't happen anymore, contrarily to what we are seeing in Ukraine, plus arguments that the fight was not fair.

The reality is that the fight was not fair for the F16 that was loaded with two external fuel tanks, probably to make sure there was no way it could win.

The latest arguments are the F35 did not have yet all the latest software, but for me it's telling the fight was not re-staged again...

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#579

Post by shimonabi »

foobarian wrote: post #558
senko wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Croatian president is stupid (as is the Prime Minister, fwiw), with little actual power, and spewing things left and right to make himself more relevant. Thankfully, Croatia doesn't have any real influence in NATO so nobody will be obliged to listen to that stupidity. Source: I live in Croatia.

You know what bugs me about Croatia. Everyone complains about how terrible it is, politicians are stupid and corrupt, nepotism everywhere, etc etc and please leave somewhere better as soon as you can, but then when you do the tune changes and now it is the nicest place on Earth with natural beauty and beaches and good life and come back as soon as you can. It's a real conundrum.

Croatia has lost 9.25% of its population since 2011.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#580

Post by bandyaboot »

donthellbanme wrote: post #164
M2Ys4U wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>However, adding new members requires unanimous consent from all existing members, so it's not guaranteed to be smooth sailing. I highly doubt that any of NATO's members will veto an application from Finland (or Sweden).

Quoted post unavailable.

The US is indeed rotting. “Taking care of everyone” might come in at number 42 on the list of reasons why.
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