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Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

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Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#491

Post by catchmilk »

weberer wrote: post #158
andruby wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about Hungary and it's seemingly pro-Russian leader, Orban? They could vote against.

He is certainly not on Russia's side in this conflict. https://hungarytoday.hu/orban-hungary-ukraine-conflict-eu/

This is an old article (22/2). Ever since, he has several times refused to back the EU on sanctions and instead adopted a very selfish/nationalist stance. He went as far as to declare Zelensky an opponent after winning the election[0].

Hungary is on the wrong side of the conflict at this point in history.

[0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60977917

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#493

Post by doikor »

refurb wrote: post #243

Anyone see any resemblance to the defense treaties of WW1?

Not really as there basically is only one big defense treaty in the form of NATO. For it to be similar there would have to be 2 or 3 defense treaties of roughly the same size/strength which Russia does not come anywhere close to.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#494

Post by cycomanic »

aa-jv wrote: post #440
cycomanic wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said: >Yes, I do believe that NATO is a war-crime committing, human-rights abusing entity that is bringing much death and destruction and turmoil to the world for the sake of special interests - political and commercial - who stand to gain billions in profit from every single NATO base built. >But, I've been paying attention to NATO's war crimes over the last two decades, as well as the immensely evil crimes agai…

The question was: "do you think any of said war crimes would actually be committed against Russia directly?" And the answer is YES, because NATO has already set a heinous precedent for committing war crimes and crimes against humanity, with seeming impunity, for decades and shows no signs of stopping its criminal war regime. So yes, I did answer the question. You maybe don't like the answer, though. >NATO force Russi…

> "do you think any of said war crimes would actually be committed against Russia directly?"

> And the answer is YES, because NATO has already set a heinous precedent for committing war crimes and crimes against humanity, with seeming impunity, for decades and shows no signs of stopping its criminal war regime.

> So yes, I did answer the question. You maybe don't like the answer, though.

You seriously need to work on how you argue, because in every discussion I see here you answer in generalities, instead of specific answers. Yes now you have answered the question, but you definitely did not before.

Regarding your argument, by the same argument I could say that Russia will commit war crimes against NATO, because Russia has already set a heinous precedent for committing ware crimes for decades with no signs of stopping. That's not how this works.

> NATO brought weapons of mass destruction to Russias borders.

Which weapons of mass destruction?

Also you are saying NATO brought weapons of mass destruction to Russias borders. Let's not forget that Russia invaded and annexed Ukrainian territories in direct violation of the Budapest agreement, and that was all done for oil and gas nothing else. That triggered a massive change of public opinion about joining NATO in Ukraine, before there was only 20% support after it was well over 50%.

Also Russia already has weapons of mass destruction on NATO borders, there are already nuclear weapons in Kalingrad.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#495

Post by klibertp »

lnxg33k1 wrote: post #463
CRConrad wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Downvoting for being right in principle, but wrong in practice: It is you who deserves being called names. HTH!

If you think I do so be it, world would be a better place if we were to talk more directly putting apart puritans

There's really no reason why we couldn't be direct while staying civil.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#496

Post by rich_sasha »

andruby wrote: post #85
M2Ys4U wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>However, adding new members requires unanimous consent from all existing members, so it's not guaranteed to be smooth sailing. I highly doubt that any of NATO's members will veto an application from Finland (or Sweden).

How about Hungary and it's seemingly pro-Russian leader, Orban? They could vote against.

Vetos are somewhat overrated. Agents may have the right to veto, but might not have the power to deal with the consequences.

Russia has a UN veto and uses it, because they can weather the consequences.

Could Hungary piss off all of its allies, trade partners, basically everyone but Russia? Doubtful. Hungary is playing a skillful, if somewhat devious, game of balancing between Russia and the West. But an outright FU to a (clearly) US-sponsored NATO expansion? I can't see them weathering this.

Signalling a veto is often rather a negotiation step.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#497

Post by rmind »

belter wrote: post #410
fsloth wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boy I have good news for you! If you are worried of the finance of Finland joining NATO - This will be a strategic partnership, not aid. It's a "good deal" for both sides. Finland will be an asset for NATO, not a cost. We already have a credible NATO compatible military. We just don't have nukes, and in wartime materiel replenishment would be a problem. https://www.ft.com/content/e85825af-5172-44c4-9662-f7ceca40e...…

Where did you find the money? 64 F-35 at my calculations comes at approximately 5 Billion dollars, this is excluding spare parts and training. Finland military complete spending/defense budget for 2019 was $3.97B. Edit: Actually it seems my calculations where off by 50%. This will cost you 10 Billion... "Audit clears Finnish F-35 buy amid rising spending on pandemic, Ukraine" https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe…

The Finnish defense budget for 2022 was €5.1bn, but I am sure they bumped it up after the Russian invasion. The overall cost of the F-35 acquisition is €8.378bn (jet fighter cost being €4.703bn of that). Naturally, such acqusitions are done gradually (e.g. over a few years).

Source: https://valtioneuvosto.fi/en/-/the-lockheed-martin-f-35a-lig...

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#498

Post by danaris »

lnxg33k1 wrote: post #438
myko wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joining NATO is literally in the Ukrainian constitution. It is not optional, attempting to join is a requirement of the government of Ukraine and not working toward that end would be unconstitutional.

Quoted post unavailable.

I Don't Know How To Explain To You That You Should Care About Other People

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#499

Post by ethbr0 »

simonh wrote: post #218
mcv wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be a serious problem for NATO if a pro-Russian Hungary could basically act as a fifth column and cripple NATO by vetoing everything. There simply has to be a process to kick out insincere members.

That's true, but NATO isn't the be-all and end-all of European mutual defence, for example there's also the Northern Group of countries, which even includes Sweden and Finland. NATO is the ultimate fallback defence pact, but being in NATO in no way prevent countries, in or out of it, from forming their own independent defence arrangements. Just this week Britain's prime minister very publicly guaranteed Britain's com…

Nukes from America Treaty Obligation

Article 5 is the shield that drastically decreases the amount of nuclear weapons European nations need to deploy, because USSR / Russian inventories are balanced out by American inventories, if it comes to all-out war.

Consequently, the world as a whole is a lot safer because {flight time Russia-US} >> {flight time Europe-Russia}, which allows for additional fail-safe guarantees on weapons that there wouldn't otherwise be a time budget for.

Re: Finland will seek NATO membership immediately

#500

Post by cycomanic »

aa-jv wrote: post #440
cycomanic wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said: >Yes, I do believe that NATO is a war-crime committing, human-rights abusing entity that is bringing much death and destruction and turmoil to the world for the sake of special interests - political and commercial - who stand to gain billions in profit from every single NATO base built. >But, I've been paying attention to NATO's war crimes over the last two decades, as well as the immensely evil crimes agai…

The question was: "do you think any of said war crimes would actually be committed against Russia directly?" And the answer is YES, because NATO has already set a heinous precedent for committing war crimes and crimes against humanity, with seeming impunity, for decades and shows no signs of stopping its criminal war regime. So yes, I did answer the question. You maybe don't like the answer, though. >NATO force Russi…

> Now here is a question for you: Why is it okay for Americans to support genocide in Yemen yet call for the end of Russia for its invasion of Ukraine?

I am neither American nor do I support the war in Yemen. I actually believe the propping up of the regime in Saudi Arabia by western governments is outrageous and one of the primary reasons for instability in the region. That does not mean I defend Russia's invasion in Ukraine, nor their behavior in e.g. Syria.

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