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Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

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Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#651

Post by simonh »

tut-urut-utut wrote: post #463
simonh wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either you believe in democracy, or you do not. If the Ukrainian people want to join the EU or NATO, and our people want them to join us as well, they have the right to make that choice as free sovereign people, and we should back them up. Any other response is itself subjugation, and capitulation to terror.

Quoted post unavailable.

That was around 2000. At the time Russia was fighting a brutal, dirty war in Dagestan and Chechnya and trying to destabilise Georgia, was supplying and providing intelligence to Saddam Hussain, was propping up the Assad regime and were helping the Iranians set up their nuclear technology program. Then there are the apartment bombings and Ryazan incident. The Kursk nuclear accident. Russian foreign relations, internal conflicts and military security operations at that time were as much of a dumpster fire as ever.

It's hard to see how those activities could be compatible with NATO membership. It would simply have provided Russia with security guarantees while providing cover for it to cause as much trouble as it wanted.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#652

Post by dncornholio »

pydry wrote: post #282
ogogmad wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think that talking to Hitler is going to stop a war?

Saying "Ukraine will remain neutral and will not join NATO" would have stopped this war. It's an unpopular fact but it's still true.

That's basically the same as saying if Puting wasn't president, the war wouldn't happened. True but meaningless. A country should decide what it does and should not rely on another country's approval.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#653

Post by roca »

cracrecry wrote: post #597
jsmith99 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Iraq war was a terrible error but it still can't be compared to Ukraine. America had no plans to colonise Iraq or absorb it into its empire. Despite the enormous death and suffering the war caused, America's aim was naive altruism: getting rid of an unquestionably evil dictator who used WMDs on his own people. There are conspiracy theories that America invaded to steal Iraq's oil but they are not plausible.

>Despite the enormous death and suffering the war caused, America's aim was naive altruism. Invading Iraq was on the agenda way before 9/11. The people that decided it are anything but naive. >There are conspiracy theories that America invaded to steal Iraq's oil but they are not plausible. Why not? The second largest oil producer in the world is invaded because of altruism out of their great heart. Geopolitics have…

> Why not?

If America's plan was to take Iraq's oil, what went wrong with the plan, given Iraqis still control their oil?

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#654

Post by ceilingcorner »

willis936 wrote: post #646
modernpink wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We also have to understand Russia's grievances instead of seeing it in terms of an evil side attacking the good side because it's not that simple. The US would hardly be best pleased if Mexico started receiving arms from China and North Korea right at its border.

What if Mexico received the arms because the US said they were going to topple Mexico's government? Russia is not justified, which is why there has been such unification in the West and silence from Russia's powerful allies. Putin made a mistake.

I don’t think anyone is saying that Russia is justified, more that if we want a solution here we have to understand their motivations.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#655

Post by dncornholio »

tut-urut-utut wrote: post #463
simonh wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either you believe in democracy, or you do not. If the Ukrainian people want to join the EU or NATO, and our people want them to join us as well, they have the right to make that choice as free sovereign people, and we should back them up. Any other response is itself subjugation, and capitulation to terror.

Quoted post unavailable.

No post body was provided.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#656

Post by qurios »

Playing the devil's advocate here - but a honest question - I've always wondered if I'd be able to recognize propaganda from within.

We're at a point now where all I see (in western media) is videos of long lines of refugees, children crying for their fathers that were drafted in Ukraine and companies banning everything Russian to turn it into a PR event online, articles about Ukranian hero president (in part articles about how sexy he is - I kid you not) - an on the other side of the spectrum Putin portrayed as a bloodthirsty madman that lost control.

I have to wonder - if anything in the world is ever portrayed this black and white - could it be true?

DISCLAIMER - condone war in every possible way and whatever the truth is in the end - Russia definitely lost control by attacking. But still - seems like we're getting a fair amount of propaganda ourselves too.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#657

Post by 5ESS »

fer wrote: post #585
5ESS wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> How do we know it’s propaganda? If your country is always right and the rest are always wrong, that could be a hint. In Western media you'll find voices for and against the war. In Russian media it's barely acknowledged that there's a war ongoing.

No post body was provided.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#658

Post by koonsolo »

sdevonoes wrote: post #587
koonsolo wrote: post #511

I have a different message: Go on the street and take control of your country, before you turn into another North Korea. Ukrainians were able to overthrow their government, and so can you.

> Go on the street and take control of your country, before you turn into another North Korea. So, you are saying that one should risk their life for their country? No, thank you. I never understood this kind of "patriotism".

> one should risk their life for their country?

No, I'm saying to risk their life for their freedom, the freedom of their family, the freedom of their children, the freedom of their neighbours.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#659

Post by dragonwriter »

necovek wrote: post #440
ysamjo wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the list of Putin's demands, what should the West has conceded on??

Not necessarily Putin's demands, but there's talk of Russia asking to join NATO way-back-when: not sure if those are trustworthy, but I am pretty confident Russia would have no fear of NATO if it was not sent off, and was instead part of it. Also, recognizing independence for Russian-controlled areas of Ukraine would have helped with the current situation too.

> Not necessarily Putin's demands, but there's talk of Russia asking to join NATO way-back-when

Putin wanted to skip the readiness steps applied to aspiring members and just be jumped in. Readiness is quite important, because NATO doesn't work by voting but consensus/unanimity.

> but I am pretty confident Russia would have no fear of NATO if it was not sent off

They weren't sent off, they were admitted to the Partnership for Peace (the onboarding path for membership) before Putin even came into office, and never formally pursued anything farther, Putin specifically indicating that he found applying the accession process used for aspiring members to Russia rather than a direct invitation for full membership improper.

> Also, recognizing independence for Russian-controlled areas of Ukraine would have helped with the current situation too.

Would it? How? Would it stopped Putin from escalating attacks from those areas and then claiming that attacks on them, combined with the historical “fact” that Ukraine was an unjustly created entity ripped from Russian territory, justified the invasion of the rest? How does that work?

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#660

Post by beebeepka »

daminimal wrote: post #321
beebeepka wrote: post #241

I suspect brownish people must feel pretty depressed right now. Seeing how their countries got destroyed with literally zero consequences for the war crimes of the "west". Disasters like this one is exactly what hegemonies lead to. And is Europe racist? Oh yes, we are. The cries against having brown people given asylum came from every corner of society. And now everyone is welcoming our brothers and sisters, as they…

A response late is better than no response. I believe what you are saying is that if some countries were destroyed, others should be as well? Europe protects itself as it considers Ukraine a part of Europe, that's not racist, that's pragmatist.

Don't want any country to be destroyed. Isn't that a given?

Can't we discuss realities in a more open way without the low hanging strawman arguments?

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