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Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

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Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#331

Post by throwaway0a5e »

ImaCake wrote: post #143
kareemm wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the breakdown of unvaxxed/vaxxed in hospital admissions and deaths? Serious question. I wonder about vaxx effectiveness when I see these numbers. But the breakdown matters. I live in Nova Scotia, Canada. Our breakdown from Mar 15-Nov 26 is[1]: - Hospitalizations: 84.4% unvaxxed, 9.6% 1 shot, 6% 2 shots - Deaths: 69% unvaxxed, 7.1% 1 shot, 23.8% 2 shots Total admissions and death rate numbers don't tell the wh…

This is exactly simpsons paradox. It is a shame so few people have heard of it! This same breakdown implies that vaccinating half of the currently unvaxxed would do a lot to reduce pressure on hospitals. That is, if you have 80% vaxxed, a mere 10% increase could halve the number of hospital beds needed. No wonder governments are going so hard on vaccinating the hesitant and antivax.

>This same breakdown implies that vaccinating half of the currently unvaxxed would do a lot to reduce pressure on hospitals.

This ignores the demographic differences between the vaxxed and the unvaxxed. The elderly and those with conditions that made them high risk have a much higher vaccination rate as one would expect.

If you cut the number of vaccinated in half you won't cut hospitalizations in half because subgroups of the population being hospitalized are not present in the same ratios in the unvaxed.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#332

Post by fileeditview »

arrrg wrote: post #201
fileeditview wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's staffing. See my other comment. Germany lost > 4000 ICU beds during the past year.

Could you source that claim? I’m comparing the numbers from the DIVI registry: 2020-12-02: https://edoc.rki.de/handle/176904/7522 2021-12-02: https://edoc.rki.de/handle/176904/9047 I’m getting 24,949 beds for today, 27,543 as the year ago number (in both cases including a couple thousand ICU beds for kids which were later split out in the more current DIVI reports since ICU beds for kids aren’t helpful for this pande…

So I had this number from the (reputable) news but I googled it and found e.g. the Ärzteblatt as a source: https://www.aerzteblatt.de/nachrichten/128476/Intensivmedizi... (German)

TBH I would not be surprised if the actually don't know the exact numbers. But even if it's "only" 2594 it's still too many.

You could call it deliberate however if the working conditions for people under such heavy load are not improved.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#334

Post by liversage »

timdaub wrote: post #270
bocytron wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sources please?

the 90% vaccination claims of the op are false.

The 90% figure has sometimes been quoted in Denmark but it doesn't include people not eligible for vaccination. Now that smaller kids are offered the vaccine this ratio has decreased and really shouldn't be used at all. The percentage of people in Denmark that have started vaccinations of the total population is 78% with 76% having completed their vaccinations.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#335

Post by throwaway47292 »

I am double vaccinated, pro vax, would get booster if I can, but if this happens in my country I will join the riots. I dont have solution, but if people dont want to get vaccinated they shouldn't be forced, period.

I am afraid this pressure will create people that are against all vaccines, and when we get like 20% of new parents not vaccinating their new lockdown babies (which are a lot, everyone i know who can be pregnant is pregnant), the Pandora's box will open, measles and polio and shit will come crawling back.

I feel we could do more to incentivize people to be less packed, like taxing working from the office and incentivize working from home, or subsidize working longer hours in retail and gyms. And possibly we could do better with masks and more tests, e.g. send families 1 test per week so they can stop the spread quicker.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#336

Post by Pyramus »

makomk wrote: post #130
_moof wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might be working from old info here but my understanding is that vaccination reduces the ICU burden. Assuming that's still good info, is it totally unreasonable to blame the unvaccinated for ICU overload?

Vaccination does reduce the proportion of people that need ICU beds, but there are pretty rapid diminishing returns on just vaccinating more; countries have reached the point where the majority of Covid patients in their ICUs are vaccinated at well below 100% vaccination. Also, vaccinating younger lower-risk people doesn't help because they're at substantially lower risk of needing the ICU even unvaccinated than some…

> countries have reached the point where the majority of Covid patients in their ICUs are vaccinated at well below 100% vaccination.

Which countries are you talking about? It's certainly not the case for Germany, and I don't know any other European country for which this would be the case.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#337

Post by vletal »

CountDrewku wrote: post #296
serial_dev wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what to say without being labeled an anti vaxxer... I was very sick for a week after each shot. I'm 30, I work from home, I work out, I'm lean and only go out when running in the forest and buy food. I can't possibly know what would happen if I caught covid, but I wish the vaccination (I'm already vaxxed, but I mean the boosters) was my choice. With my reaction to the vaccines, it's two weeks a year guarante…

Yes I had a horrible reaction to the 2nd dose. So did everyone I know. Yes it's possible the real thing might be worse for me but I'm going to take my chances. I will not be taking a booster. I'm healthy, exercise regularly and I'm not in the age group that's high-risk. There are studies showing the vaccine isn't even effective at 3 months. There's no way I'm dealing with that shot every 3-6 months.

Just please cite the studies you mentioned. There is way too much nuance to be boiled down to such general claim.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#338

Post by SergeAx »

matsemann wrote: post #238
zibzab wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden did not keep _everything_ open. We found a sweet spot between "business as usual" and "everybody stays at home". For example, big gatherings and sport events were not allowed. Schools were open only for younger kids.

Sweet spot being 3-5x as many deaths as Norway/Denmark/Finland?

Please check out this data, section "z-score by country": https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps

Sweden indeed has a worse z-score compared to Norway or Denmark, but better compared to France, Netherlands or Belgium (or Germany, for that matter). And much better than Italy or Spain. I say they indeed found a sweet spot and escaped lockdowns.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#339

Post by martneumann »

notjes wrote: post #222
krater23 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is clear now that the vaccines require 3 doses to be effective Looks like you are really a optimist. I would say, 'It's clear now that the vaccines require one dose every 5-6 months to be effective against hard covid symptoms'. Additionally I would not say 'Our governments failed pretty hard in this wave', instead I would say 'Our governments failed hard during the complete pandemic'.

Our governments should have done nothing. People, doctors and clinics would have taken care of this easily. Also, it would be a good community building exercise. But no. Once the Governments stepped in, it was all lockdowns, prohibition and ban of repurpose drugs, soldiers marching through streets, 80 years of ethics preaching tossed out the window in a heart beat.

It's not the government who cried for help because of overflowing ICUs, it was the hospitals.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#340

Post by PicassoCTs »

zibzab wrote: post #161
lbj wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"open everything up despite it being relatively clear it was way too early" It probably wasn't. There have been 2 major studies on the effects of covid-lockdown measures, they show a small increase in total mortality. So we should have done as the Swedes and kept everything open from beginning to end.

Sweden did not keep _everything_ open. We found a sweet spot between "business as usual" and "everybody stays at home". For example, big gatherings and sport events were not allowed. Schools were open only for younger kids.

A sweet spot, were the elderly first were not properly protected, and then euthanized instead of given at least a treatment effort? Not even C-Pap, just panic-relieve and pain-medication. Not even given a choice, just scratched out of the book by politics.

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2841CG

It was a reckless betrayal of the elderly population of sweden.

I'm all for the freedom of self-euthanization, if a person longs for that and no, this can not be compared with what went down.

Which can be best described as a remnant from a horrific pre-worldwar 2 "survival of the fittest" mindset being dragged into the light.

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