Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#141

Post by jjoonathan » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:13 PM UTC

caeril wrote: post #133

fabian2k wrote: post #99

71% percent of Germans support mandatory vaccinations for COVID, this is from a poll published today. Our governments failed pretty hard in this wave, which is why we now need to take more drastic measures again when the entirely predictable course events would take this winter became apparent even to our politicians. But at a point were planned operations for other diseases like cancer get cancelled all over the pla…

I bet on the order of 71% of Germans supported mandatory discrimination against undesirables in 1940 too, but here we are yet again, claiming that what a majority of the population supports is indicative of moral correctness. If these measures don't work, like literally every authoritarian measure undertaken by governments so far, maybe Germany can put all the un-vaccinated into camps, too. We need to keep the unpure…

It's really hard to sympathize with people fighting for the "right" to infect me with a disease.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#142

Post by more_corn » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:14 PM UTC

throwntoday wrote: post #87

lbj wrote: post #75

In Denmark we have now reached 90% vaccination rate. We have more infected, the same number of admissions in hospital and a 15% higher death rate than all of 2020. I really fail to see why we are blaming the unvaccinated and not Pfizer/Moderna.

No you don't understand, the unvaccinated are the reason the vaccinated are getting the virus /s

This is simply not true.

Don’t get me wrong. I fully support everyone getting vaccinated, and requiring it broadly. But your statement is just not true.

Omicron is thought to have evolved in an immunocompromised person. Vaccinating that person would not have helped. COVID-19 is also known to cross easily between humans and other animals. An alternate theory is that the startling number of mutations in the Omicron variant evolved in an animal host.

This variant appears to defeat previous immunity both from prior infection and vaccination. The willfully unvaccinated, while idiots and selfish assholes are not to blame in our current troubles and vaccinating every person on earth would not have prevented the Omicron outbreak.

Furthermore we need to take a global view. Just because we have sufficient doses to fully vaccine everyone in Europe we’re not protected unless everyone everywhere gets vaccinated. (And even then pockets of virus can mutate and overcome the vaccine) I’ll worry more about idiot Texans (who are frankly mostly hurting themselves and their families) when we provide enough doses to Bangladesh to vaccinate their whole population. (And rinse and repeat for every developing nation)

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#143

Post by ImaCake » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:14 PM UTC

kareemm wrote: post #96

lbj wrote: post #75

In Denmark we have now reached 90% vaccination rate. We have more infected, the same number of admissions in hospital and a 15% higher death rate than all of 2020. I really fail to see why we are blaming the unvaccinated and not Pfizer/Moderna.

What is the breakdown of unvaxxed/vaxxed in hospital admissions and deaths? Serious question. I wonder about vaxx effectiveness when I see these numbers. But the breakdown matters. I live in Nova Scotia, Canada. Our breakdown from Mar 15-Nov 26 is[1]: - Hospitalizations: 84.4% unvaxxed, 9.6% 1 shot, 6% 2 shots - Deaths: 69% unvaxxed, 7.1% 1 shot, 23.8% 2 shots Total admissions and death rate numbers don't tell the wh…

This is exactly simpsons paradox. It is a shame so few people have heard of it!

This same breakdown implies that vaccinating half of the currently unvaxxed would do a lot to reduce pressure on hospitals. That is, if you have 80% vaxxed, a mere 10% increase could halve the number of hospital beds needed. No wonder governments are going so hard on vaccinating the hesitant and antivax.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#144

Post by acd » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:14 PM UTC

Its a global pandemic where a small percentage follow antiwax conspiracy. I mean an iduvidual choice might endanger others. Thus its induvidual choice versus the good for the masses.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#145

Post by hogFeast » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:14 PM UTC

Would love to see stats on what parts of society this is going to impact? In the UK, the govt would have had to produce stats on the impact on minority groups. Based on what is happening on other countries, this looks like an outright assault on the poor, disabled, and recent migrants. History tends to repeat...perhaps the unvaccinated should be forced to wear badges? To protect the vaccinated ofc.

I am in the UK, in a part of the UK that has a badly malfunctioning health service. Waiting time for ambulance two weeks ago was twenty minutes (and that was just travel time), no issues at ICU (not for me, it was a relative the ICU was precautionary), no issues getting a bed...strangely, the experience was much better than the pre-Covid...significantly so. Germany has the same vaccination rate, Germany has a better health service...it is strange. No-one places any value on their freedom because it is something that is freely given to everyone today, our ancestors shed blood for it but we didn't...is this worth it? It is a huge change in freedoms for something that is unlikely to change things (I am not sure how this kind of thing is legal, if it is legal for a govt to essentially quarantine citizens in their own home if they refuse to have a medical procedure...that is alarming).

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#146

Post by snovv_crash » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:14 PM UTC

peteradio wrote: post #40

Arnt wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaccinated people can spread the virus. However, if everyone in .de were vaccinated the R value would be somewhat below 1. It wouldn't be zero, because vaccinated people can spread the virus, but 1 is a critical threshold.

If you would have said 1 year ago, everyone will need this vaccine to reduce R below 1 you would have been laughed out of the room. What kind of shitty vaccine requires literally everyone to get it? Now good thing that wasn't the approach. Instead we said, "these vaccines kick ass" and walked that line back every day to buy compliance one person at a time. Good look. Good luck. Not sure how people can live with the c…

Note how all of the variants which health authorities said just needed a reasonably high vaccine rate are now effectively eradicated. It is only the new 'delta' (and upcoming 'omicron') that remain, and these are known to have much lower vaccine efficacy.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#147

Post by bavent » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:14 PM UTC

jjoonathan wrote: post #141

caeril wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet on the order of 71% of Germans supported mandatory discrimination against undesirables in 1940 too, but here we are yet again, claiming that what a majority of the population supports is indicative of moral correctness. If these measures don't work, like literally every authoritarian measure undertaken by governments so far, maybe Germany can put all the un-vaccinated into camps, too. We need to keep the unpure…

It's really hard to sympathize with people fighting for the "right" to infect me with a disease.

And really hard to listen to people compare vaccine mandates to the holocaust.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#148

Post by fileeditview » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:15 PM UTC

marton78 wrote: post #126

crooked-v wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With exponential spread, the actual number of ICU beds really doesn't matter, because whatever you've got will be overwhelmed across a similar timeframe anyway. The only way to actually fix the problem is to get the R-value below 1, which requires mass vaccinations.

The spectre of exponential spread is summoned way too often. Yes, an epidemic spreads exponentially when it starts, but also it's self limiting after a while. The 4th wave is wearing of already. Every wave so far has worn off in every country, with our without measures. As a recent example, compare Latvia and Estonia in the past few months. The former imposed strict measures, while the latter didn't, and yet the two…

Mankind has a tendency to not accept what it cannot control. Our politicians and virologists often said something along the lines: "we need to do X to keep control of the situation".

In the end we never were in control of the situation but people cannot accept that.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#149

Post by krater23 » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:16 PM UTC

fabian2k wrote: post #99

71% percent of Germans support mandatory vaccinations for COVID, this is from a poll published today. Our governments failed pretty hard in this wave, which is why we now need to take more drastic measures again when the entirely predictable course events would take this winter became apparent even to our politicians. But at a point were planned operations for other diseases like cancer get cancelled all over the pla…

>It is clear now that the vaccines require 3 doses to be effective

Looks like you are really a optimist. I would say, 'It's clear now that the vaccines require one dose every 5-6 months to be effective against hard covid symptoms'.

Additionally I would not say 'Our governments failed pretty hard in this wave', instead I would say 'Our governments failed hard during the complete pandemic'.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#150

Post by ryandrake » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:16 PM UTC

shoto_io wrote: post #7

As a double vaccinated German, I am very disappointed and angry about this move. Our politicians have failed to prepare the country for the Winter (who could have known...). We lack a basic strategy how to cope with Covid. And now they try to fix this by dividing the country in two. This will have no effect whatsoever on the infections, it will just continue to drive a divide that is already existing and will make an…

> And now they try to fix this by dividing the country in two. This will have no effect whatsoever on the infections, it will just continue to drive a divide that is already existing and will make anti-vaxxers even more convinced that this is a big conspiracy.

You could say this about any law that enforces some uncomfortable behavior change. Anyone who remembers when seat belt laws became real, sees history repeating itself, down to the exact same arguments about effectiveness and rhetoric about choice and tyranny and government overreach.

COVID has been a challenge for the same reason Climate Change is challenging: They both require collective cooperative action from people, and you can't rely on everyone having a natural desire to do the right thing. Laws can't make people want to do the right thing--they can only provide incentives or disincentives for specific actions or behaviors.