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Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

cnn.com

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Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#31

Post by disneygibson »

yladiz wrote: post #25
disneygibson wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Increase hospital staff? Encourage social distancing? I don’t know, anything other than creating second class citizens in a country with a horrible history of it?

Increasing staff won't add more beds to already full hospitals, though. And social distancing has been encouraged for a while, even for the vaccinated, and it hasn't seemed to help.

Then build new hospitals. Or learn to live with it.

Authoritarianism isn’t somehow justified because current actions “haven’t seemed to help.” That’s the playbook of every oppressive regime since the beginning of time: this is an emergency so we don’t need to follow laws or respect rights.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#32

Post by [deleted] »

tinus_hn wrote: post #26
yladiz wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question: given the current situation, what's the alternative? A lockdown for everyone? Vaccine mandate? Doing nothing and removing restrictions? Something else?

Imagine a world in which the vaccine does not exist. What would you do then? That is the alternative.

[deleted]

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#33

Post by Arnt »

disneygibson wrote: post #23
yladiz wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question: given the current situation, what's the alternative? A lockdown for everyone? Vaccine mandate? Doing nothing and removing restrictions? Something else?

Increase hospital staff? Encourage social distancing? I don’t know, anything other than creating second class citizens in a country with a horrible history of it?

The hospitals have been hiring nonstop. Unfortunately medical staff is also leaving the hospitals that treat corona patients. As one said, speaking to a journalist, the current patients are a "potpourri of difficult personalities", so the nurses apply for jobs at things like eye clinic and the hospitals can't even operate the beds they have.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#34

Post by TechBro8615 »

lillecarl wrote: post #6
TechBro8615 wrote: post #5

I’m confused. I thought vaccinated people can spread the virus. Why are they not locked down too?

Because the risk of transmission is understood to be significantly lower, and since unvaccinated people are more likely to cause the virus to mutate it's in the governments best interest to get people vaccinated, a way of accomplishing this could be making life inconvenient for the uncompliant.

Hm, so a vaccine that does not stop transmission does not create selective pressure on the virus? Wouldn’t that be unusual from an evolutionary biology standpoint?

Can we at least agree that if infected, as a vaccinated and asymptomatic carrier, there is a higher chance of transmission than if I were unvaccinated and symptomatic? This seems like common sense to me, but I recognize it goes against the Covid orthodoxy.

Also, when you say “inconvenient,” what do you mean exactly? To me, total restriction on movement and segregation from society based on medical status seems like more than an inconvenience. Maybe I’m just an anti-vaxxer, a victim of misinformation… if only I could think for myself.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#35

Post by tinus_hn »

yladiz wrote: post #28
tinus_hn wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine a world in which the vaccine does not exist. What would you do then? That is the alternative.

We don't live in a world without the vaccine, so I don't see the argument.

A possible answer to your question of what we could do if we do not want to force people to get vaccinated is the same as what we could do if people could not be vaccinated.

You said it was your ‘genuine question’. So I’m not sure why you need to see the argument. It’s an answer to your question, not an argument.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#36

Post by Arnt »

TechBro8615 wrote: post #5

I’m confused. I thought vaccinated people can spread the virus. Why are they not locked down too?

Vaccinated people can spread the virus. However, if everyone in .de were vaccinated the R value would be somewhat below 1. It wouldn't be zero, because vaccinated people can spread the virus, but 1 is a critical threshold.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#37

Post by lillecarl »

TechBro8615 wrote: post #34
lillecarl wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the risk of transmission is understood to be significantly lower, and since unvaccinated people are more likely to cause the virus to mutate it's in the governments best interest to get people vaccinated, a way of accomplishing this could be making life inconvenient for the uncompliant.

Hm, so a vaccine that does not stop transmission does not create selective pressure on the virus? Wouldn’t that be unusual from an evolutionary biology standpoint? Can we at least agree that if infected, as a vaccinated and asymptomatic carrier, there is a higher chance of transmission than if I were unvaccinated and symptomatic? This seems like common sense to me, but I recognize it goes against the Covid orthodoxy.…

The point is vaccinating everyone, just like we did with Smallpox. Which is essentially dead because of vaccination.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#38

Post by shoto_io »

yladiz wrote: post #20
shoto_io wrote: post #7

As a double vaccinated German, I am very disappointed and angry about this move. Our politicians have failed to prepare the country for the Winter (who could have known...). We lack a basic strategy how to cope with Covid. And now they try to fix this by dividing the country in two. This will have no effect whatsoever on the infections, it will just continue to drive a divide that is already existing and will make an…

Genuine question: given the current situation, what's the alternative? A lockdown for everyone? Vaccine mandate? Doing nothing and removing restrictions? Something else?

Probably not much. All KPIs are heading down now anyways, just look into the RKI dashboard [1]. Doing a quick math exercise underscores this: 70% are vaccinated, 6 million had it (at least, the number is probably higher), so in total 80-85% of the population already had it or is vaccinated by now. Numbers should go down now from now, which they actually start to do, if you look in the dashboard.

[1] https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus...

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#39

Post by nradov »

Arnt wrote: post #36
TechBro8615 wrote: post #5

I’m confused. I thought vaccinated people can spread the virus. Why are they not locked down too?

Vaccinated people can spread the virus. However, if everyone in .de were vaccinated the R value would be somewhat below 1. It wouldn't be zero, because vaccinated people can spread the virus, but 1 is a critical threshold.

Do you have a citation for that? I haven't seen any high quality studies which directly compare long term R0 for vaccinated and unvaccinated populations. While I encourage everyone eligible to protect themselves by getting vaccinated, it seems to have only a limited and temporary effect on reducing transmission.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/experts-vaccine-immunity...

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#40

Post by peteradio »

Arnt wrote: post #36
TechBro8615 wrote: post #5

I’m confused. I thought vaccinated people can spread the virus. Why are they not locked down too?

Vaccinated people can spread the virus. However, if everyone in .de were vaccinated the R value would be somewhat below 1. It wouldn't be zero, because vaccinated people can spread the virus, but 1 is a critical threshold.

If you would have said 1 year ago, everyone will need this vaccine to reduce R below 1 you would have been laughed out of the room. What kind of shitty vaccine requires literally everyone to get it? Now good thing that wasn't the approach. Instead we said, "these vaccines kick ass" and walked that line back every day to buy compliance one person at a time. Good look. Good luck. Not sure how people can live with the cognitive dissonance of being obviously lied to "for the greater good".
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