Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#281

Post by angelzen » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 2:16 AM UTC

bsder wrote: post #175

gorwell wrote: post #59

A lot of comments here asking for specific numbers and making comparisons to other risks. That's exactly how one should be looking at this. What I don't understand is why people don't apply this same critical thought process to the risks of Covid? For example, do you know what the risk of hospitalization from Covid is when unvaccinated? If you said >50%, you would be in good company. It's the most common answer. But…

As someone who had a "mild" (I only had a 103 fever for 3 weeks, swelling in all manner of weird places, and exhaustion) Covid Original Flavour(tm), I still have symptoms due to the aftermath even a year later. Research keeps increasing the percentage for people who have "long Covid" symptoms and the length of their duration. And I didn't have a symptom like losing my smell which seems to be very common. Losing your…

This is rough, sorry to hear that. Hopefully it will get better in the long run.

You are absolutely correct: if the only reason for not getting the vaccine is concern over vaccine side effects, then take the vaccine.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#282

Post by ceejayoz » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 2:17 AM UTC

curmudgeon22 wrote: post #230

bserge wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, yeah. If vaccines don't protect against virus spread... Fuck it, let people decide. Either take a vaccine or risk getting Covid in the wild. Just make it so you can't use a hospital bed in that case. It's only fair to people who are actually forced to go to the hospital, as opposed to gambling for it.

Should smokers be denied medical treatment related to that choice too?

Smokers are routinely denied organ transplants if they refuse to quit. Same thing for alcohol.

"Heart and lung transplant candidates must be free of nicotine and tobacco use, including chewing tobacco, for six months prior to an initial listing."

https://www.osotc.org/resources/tobacco-abstinence-criteria/

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#283

Post by nojokes » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 2:19 AM UTC

tshaddox wrote: post #151

Denvercoder9 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, do you know what the risk of hospitalization from Covid is when unvaccinated? > Risk numbers are totally useless when not stating the time over which the risk is incurred. A 1% lifetime risk is very different from a 1% daily risk. For example, the 0.89% population hospitalization rate in the last 1.5 years for the unvaccinated from the article you linked corresponds to a 38% chance of hospitalization o…

My interpretation of that phrasing is that it refers to the risk of hospitalization from a single infection of COVID-19, so I don't think the time frame matters all that much (other than perhaps much later hospitalizations from long-term effects that we still don't know a lot about yet).

It is also possible that people who answered got the interpretation wrong.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#284

Post by phonypc » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 2:21 AM UTC

AndrewBissell wrote: post #255

guywhocodes wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally know three persons that got some degree of chest pain. I had worse symptoms than they did, now 3 months later I can let my heart rate hit maximum, which is significantly lower than before. My cardiologist says that without an MRI he can't diagnose me and my insurance did not cover it. It's quite likely imo that there is a relevant diagnosis not being made because it's inaccessible.

> My cardiologist says that without an MRI he can't diagnose me and my insurance did not cover it. It's quite likely imo that there is a relevant diagnosis not being made because it's inaccessible. I would suggest you report it to VAERS, but everyone's decided that data should just be ignored so what's the point?

Nobody says it should be ignored. You just can't take the reports at face value and use any loose connection to a condition as proof positive that the condition was present and associated with the vaccine. It's meant for identifying possible correlations for further study, not relaying the true rate of events.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#285

Post by ceejayoz » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 2:23 AM UTC

pyronik19 wrote: post #166

tw04 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't a medical system on planet earth that is prepared or capable of having 1% of their population in the hospital at the same time. So " Ignoring the massive financial burden on hospitals who are also not financially setup to have the entire hospital full of people sick with COVID - they are bleeding cash without elective surgeries. They can only bleed for so long without significant government intervention.…

"Beds" is a meaningless figure... it really refers to staff. Now they are massively firing nurses who won't get vaxxed (which should be red flag in and of itself, wonder what they are seeing day to day) which in turn leads to less beds... which then in turn helps justify the "need" for mandates. All of those nurses have been getting daily boosters of covid from actual patients every day and we are pretending like the…

> Now they are massively firing nurses who won't get vaxxed (which should be red flag in and of itself, wonder what they are seeing day to day)

Single-digit percentages in most hospital systems.

If you're evaluating vaccine safety based on the opinions of healthcare professionals, there's good news for you.

https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-sur...

> The American Medical Association (AMA) today released a new survey (PDF) among practicing physicians that shows more than 96 percent of surveyed U.S. physicians have been fully vaccinated for COVID-19, with no significant difference in vaccination rates across regions. Of the physicians who are not yet vaccinated, an additional 45 percent do plan to get vaccinated.

(That one's pre-mandates, incidentally.)

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/28/nyregion/vaccine-health-c...

> As the vaccination mandate went into full effect on Monday, 92 percent of the state’s more than 650,000 hospital and nursing home workers had received at least one vaccine dose, state officials said. That was a significant increase from a week ago, when 82 percent of the state’s nursing home workers and at least 84 percent of hospital workers had received at least one dose.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/09/28/nc-hospital...

> Novant Health spokeswoman Megan Rivers told The Washington Post that more than 99 percent of the system’s roughly 35,000 employees have followed the mandatory vaccination program. She said in a statement that Novant Health was “thrilled” those who chose to be vaccinated have given patients and visitors “better protection against COVID-19 regardless of where they are in our health system.”

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#286

Post by nojokes » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 2:23 AM UTC

sethammons wrote: post #223

noetic_techy wrote: post #110

The problem is that the perception of public trust is eroding significantly the more we learn and the more fervent the mandates become. We pulled the swine flu vaccine for way less back in 2010, I think it was 12 cases of GBS only! The fact that I know of people who have either had mycarditis AND clots tells me the rate is much higher then reported by VAERS. The reason damn near everyone except for adamant anti-vax h…

> The fact that I know of people who have either had mycarditis AND clots tells me the rate is much higher then reported by VAERS My daughter's bf's friend's mom died of a stroke two days after getting the vaccine. Two of my brother-in-laws where hospitalized for heart issues after the vaccine. Another friend of ours now has bad tinnitus after getting the vaccine. A guy at my dad's work stroked out within 48 hours of…

Time does not give you anything beneficial. Administering more doses with better tracking does. If we just waited for some years and started to use the vaccine, we would be still in similar situation.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#287

Post by ceejayoz » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 2:29 AM UTC

marvin wrote: post #146

mahogany wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I'm missing your point. This article is talking about the relative risk of developing myocarditis, but you are talking about the risk of hospitalization from COVID. Wouldn't the correct comparison be to look at the risk of myocarditis after catching COVID? Or going the other way, shouldn't we be comparing the risk of hospitalization due to COVID (if unvaccinated) to that of hospitalization after receiving the…

The real ethical tradeoff is "what's your chance of contracting covid and getting complications in the one-week delay between cancelling your Moderna appointment and getting the Pfeizer vaccine instead" vs. "what's the chance of getting myocarditis from side effects of the Moderna vaccine". Seems like most people in this thread hear "Scandinavian authorities are stopping the vaccination program", when the recommendat…

> Seems like most people in this thread hear "Scandinavian authorities are stopping the vaccination program", when the recommendation is rather to switch vaccines for men under a certain age.

> The ethical consideration is not particularly complicated, and Scandinavian health authorities are not risk-averse idiots. They simply care about an equation that might lead to a couple of saved lives in total. I think this level of care speaks highly of the intentions of the healthcare systems in Scandinavia.

In a vacuum, I agree.

The unfortunate reality is that many will take this in the "Scandinavian authorities are stopping the vaccination program", as you're seeing already here, and that confusion is likely to be weaponized by antivax activists.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#288

Post by nojokes » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 2:31 AM UTC

dingdongbing wrote: post #225

kaitai wrote: post #66

Note a cultural memory component: in Finland (and Norway, Sweden) there was a rash of narcolepsy after the swine flu vaccinations of 2009-2010. Gov't was criticized for not reacting quickly enough (to be fair, side effect was not observed until vaccinations were ~complete, and so it was all just rearguard action after that). Lots of memory, bad press about kids being damaged. There is a cultural-political component h…

There is not a political component to this, we (Sweden) have probably the most objective and science based Health system in the world. For this reason we get criticized by other nations for not having lockdowns and not wearing masks, there is no indication that these actually work and they probably cause more harm than good. Our leaders have shown great competence to follow the science and not make a knee-jerk reacti…

Except your scientist(s) were wrong this time and killed 10 times more people by not implementing quick and mild restrictions and letting the disease spread. Sure, what US and France did was also different kind of wrong but it does not make you right. Only thing that has been life saving is very quick reaction that limits the spread at its infancy. Also of course quick vaccination.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#289

Post by angelzen » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 2:32 AM UTC

nojokes wrote: post #228

rohitb91 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or the odds of dying of covid for young people vs a car accident. car accidents are significantly more dangerous. And before people bring up side effects or other long term damage, most people don’t die in car accidents and suffer from ptsd, whiplash, broken bones etc. Yet bring this up and you’re automatically an anti Vaxxer. People are absolutely terrible at evaluating personal risk. One of my coworkers drove acros…

Actually deaths because of car accidents are less frequent than dying because of COVID-19 for 25-45 year old in US this year. For 15-24 year old COVID-19 is third leading cause of nonviolent death after cancer and cardiovascular problems. Dying of flu is 10 times less likely and this year almost infinite times less likely so far. There is one very important difference - reducing risk of death because of COVID-19 can…

Do you have a source for "third leading cause of nonviolent death"? According to CDC, a 24yo female death has a 113 : 2416 = 4.7% chance of being caused by covid, and a 24yo male death has a 195 : 6756 = 2.9% chance of being caused by covid. Not trivial, but I wouldn't call something with https://data.cdc.gov/resource/3apk-4u4f.csv

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#290

Post by nojokes » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 2:40 AM UTC

makomk wrote: post #174

orf wrote: post #27

~2.7 cases of myocarditis per 100k. Deadly car crashes in the US is about 11 deaths per 100k (between 3.3 and 25 when looking at states directly, 18.2 worldwide average). That's not even counting indirect deaths caused by car fumes. So to the person posting the same thing from new accounts about vaccines being a great risk to yourself, I hope you take driving and crossing the road as seriously as you take getting vac…

The trouble with myocarditis caused by the mRNA vaccines is that even though the risk is low, for some of the age groups it seems to be higher than the risk of them being hospitalized due to Covid. (A risk which a lot of people seem to overestimate, but that's another story.) So even though they should be more worried about crossing the road than the vaccine, it's also entirely rational for them to consider the vacci…

Well, it is actually not higher.

Definitely not when you take the speed of Delta into account. For example Scotland (as the rest of the UK) did not vaccinate 12-15 year old children. When the school year started, about 10% of this population got infected in 5 weeks. So during first 5 weeks you had 1:10 change of getting COVID-19. About 27:100000 of them got hospitalized when in comparison CDC assumption was 38:100000 in 4 months.

So they are wrong as were UK officials. UK started vaccinating 12 year old and older since 20th September.

In addition. If you are going to develop myocarditis after vaccine induced immune reaction, changes are that it will happened to you when you get the infection. People are getting it after flu shot but it is given only once so it is not really comparable.