Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 407 posts

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#221

Post by lliamander »

im3w1l wrote: post #206
lliamander wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like saying "War and Peace isn't a big book because it isn't even as big as the smallest car". Yes, both can be measured in the same units (e.g. weight or volume) but that doesn't mean the comparison makes sense. You have to compare things which are in some sense alternatives of each other. The question is not "is the vaccine safer than driving" but "is the vaccine safer than not getting the vaccine ?". Sure,…

I can only speak to myself, but I decided that covid is not a threat to me, and neither is the vaccine (being safer than driving). Hence I would just go with the path of least resistance: take the damn vaccine so people will shut up about it and let me be part of society. Point is that the absolute risk matters too: If it's low enough you can just shrug and do whatever.

> Hence I would just go with the path of least resistance: take the damn vaccine so people will shut up about it and let me be part of society.

Yeah, I'm not inclined acquiesce to irrational demands, and I'm comfortable being in the control group (for now).

> Point is that the absolute risk matters too: If it's low enough you can just shrug and do whatever.

That's fair.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#222

Post by 8note »

mfer wrote: post #64
azinman2 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New study using Kaiser data with both Pfizer and Moderna all ages [1]. 15 cases out of 2,392,924 (0.8 cases per 1 million first doses and 5.8 cases per 1 million second doses over a 10-day observation window), of which all were men with a median age of 25 years. While that's both vaccines, it's still quite rare especially given the large population size (2.3M people), especially considering for under 16s your risk of…

Thanks for the data. In a world where people like to talk about their opinions, it's great to have some form of foundation. When I speak to folks and can talk about these details it often sways opinions on those who aren't at the extremes. I wish more people shared data and the foundation for their opinion.

What's missing is how many people you'd expect to have some myocarditis in absense of covid or the vaccine.

I doubt that it would be 0/2M

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#223

Post by sethammons »

noetic_techy wrote: post #110

The problem is that the perception of public trust is eroding significantly the more we learn and the more fervent the mandates become. We pulled the swine flu vaccine for way less back in 2010, I think it was 12 cases of GBS only! The fact that I know of people who have either had mycarditis AND clots tells me the rate is much higher then reported by VAERS. The reason damn near everyone except for adamant anti-vax h…

> The fact that I know of people who have either had mycarditis AND clots tells me the rate is much higher then reported by VAERS

My daughter's bf's friend's mom died of a stroke two days after getting the vaccine. Two of my brother-in-laws where hospitalized for heart issues after the vaccine. Another friend of ours now has bad tinnitus after getting the vaccine. A guy at my dad's work stroked out within 48 hours of getting the vaccine. I have a small social circle and I can think of 5 cases off the top of my head of negative reactions to the vaccines.

This is not to say the vaccine is bad. This make me think we are not properly tracking and reporting all the side effects. I want more time and more data. A couple of years at the minimum I'd think.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#224

Post by lliamander »

XorNot wrote: post #202
lliamander wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like saying "War and Peace isn't a big book because it isn't even as big as the smallest car". Yes, both can be measured in the same units (e.g. weight or volume) but that doesn't mean the comparison makes sense. You have to compare things which are in some sense alternatives of each other. The question is not "is the vaccine safer than driving" but "is the vaccine safer than not getting the vaccine ?". Sure,…

Myocarditis is not fatal, and not permanent.

Is this intended to be an answer to my question, or a refutation to some point I made?

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#225

Post by dingdongbing »

kaitai wrote: post #66

Note a cultural memory component: in Finland (and Norway, Sweden) there was a rash of narcolepsy after the swine flu vaccinations of 2009-2010. Gov't was criticized for not reacting quickly enough (to be fair, side effect was not observed until vaccinations were ~complete, and so it was all just rearguard action after that). Lots of memory, bad press about kids being damaged. There is a cultural-political component h…

There is not a political component to this, we (Sweden) have probably the most objective and science based Health system in the world. For this reason we get criticized by other nations for not having lockdowns and not wearing masks, there is no indication that these actually work and they probably cause more harm than good. Our leaders have shown great competence to follow the science and not make a knee-jerk reaction to what France and America are doing.

If Moderna is clearly worse than Pfizer, then why shouldn't we stop it?

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#226

Post by CheezeIt »

XorNot wrote: post #198
CheezeIt wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That number for under 30’s is full of people who are extremely fat or otherwise have preexisting health problems. If you’re under 30 and seemingly healthy your fatality rate is much lower.

Except the risk is not 0 if you don't have comorbidities. People keep throwing this statement out as though somehow the risk of vaccination is higher then the risks due to viral infection. It is not. The risks of adverse reactions to COVID infection is reduced across the board if you are fully vaccinated regardless of your health status. Also worth noting: plenty of young people have comorbidities they don't know abo…

I literally wrote, “If you’re under 30 and seemingly healthy your fatality rate is much lower.”

If you’re going to disagree with me at least disagree with me.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#227

Post by bjourne »

nojokes wrote: post #199
AndrewBissell wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Actually mRNA vaccines/tech been in development and trials for a long time (decades). Obviously the parent was not referring to the entire development history of mRNA tech, any more than one would include the initial work on inventing the internal combustion engine when talking about how much safety testing had been carried out for a new model car. The usual safety trials were not carried out for these vaccines, fu…

Yes, they were. Each of the vaccines used around 40000 people in their trials. It is an equal to series of crash tests. But there are effects that are so rare that do not come out unless the medicine is administered to larger group of people. This is the reason why every approved medicine is kept under extended surveillance.

According to this page, the vaccines has a EU conditional marketing authorisation: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... Afaik, most drugs are not introduced through a conditional authorisation.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#228

Post by nojokes »

rohitb91 wrote: post #76
gorwell wrote: post #59

A lot of comments here asking for specific numbers and making comparisons to other risks. That's exactly how one should be looking at this. What I don't understand is why people don't apply this same critical thought process to the risks of Covid? For example, do you know what the risk of hospitalization from Covid is when unvaccinated? If you said >50%, you would be in good company. It's the most common answer. But…

Or the odds of dying of covid for young people vs a car accident. car accidents are significantly more dangerous. And before people bring up side effects or other long term damage, most people don’t die in car accidents and suffer from ptsd, whiplash, broken bones etc. Yet bring this up and you’re automatically an anti Vaxxer. People are absolutely terrible at evaluating personal risk. One of my coworkers drove acros…

Actually deaths because of car accidents are less frequent than dying because of COVID-19 for 25-45 year old in US this year. For 15-24 year old COVID-19 is third leading cause of nonviolent death after cancer and cardiovascular problems. Dying of flu is 10 times less likely and this year almost infinite times less likely so far.

There is one very important difference - reducing risk of death because of COVID-19 can be done very easily. Not so with driving.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#229

Post by lliamander »

XorNot wrote: post #207
lliamander wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1% of the population is not getting COVID all at once. That's 1% of people who happen to have COVID right now . A much smaller number.

The number of intensive care beds available in New York City pre-pandemic was about 1,600 - total.[1] The population of NYC as of 2019 is 8.419 million . 8,419,000.[2] NYC couldn't have more then 0.02% of its population in hospital at any given time. And that number is not available capacity - that's total. Generally at any given time 50 - 80% of those beds are in use for other patients since you don't build ICU capa…

Those are all true and useful facts. And things sucked in NYC for a while.

Now that we have vaccines and people with natural immunity, I imagine the percentage of the population contracting covid and getting sufficiently sick is (should be?) going down. Hopefully that plus better therapeutics should keep things from sucking as bad again.

Of course, with large numbers of nurses quiting over vaccine mandates, the capacity is going down and things might suck again.

Re: Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

#230

Post by curmudgeon22 »

bserge wrote: post #122
nabla9 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like if you take everything into account, taking the vaccine might not provide any benefit from men under 30. Any medical intervention must be beneficial to justify the use. If it's so and so, or equal risk, then it's not done. EDIT: The alternative is not stopping vaccinations. Men under 30 are given Pfizer.

I mean, yeah. If vaccines don't protect against virus spread... Fuck it, let people decide. Either take a vaccine or risk getting Covid in the wild. Just make it so you can't use a hospital bed in that case. It's only fair to people who are actually forced to go to the hospital, as opposed to gambling for it.

Should smokers be denied medical treatment related to that choice too?
Post reply on HN