The Framework is the most exciting laptop I've used • Hacker News Board

Re: The Framework is the most exciting laptop I've used

#971

Post by nikau » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 11:00 AM UTC

habeebtc wrote: post #711

mikenew wrote: post #124

Been extremely happy with mine the past couple months. The little modular port attachments seemed like a novelty at first, but now it feels absurd that you'd buy a laptop with a bunch of "hardcoded" ports that you can't ever change. The only real Linux related quirk I've run into so far is that you have to disable panel self refresh (it's on by default and causes stuttering). Other than that tiny thing I pretty much…

How soon PCMCIA has been forgotten. Forgotten by hardware makers, forgotten by users. ...And Cardbus after it!

The cards were too thin - every IT department during that era had a box full of Xircom PCMCIA network cards with missing or broken rj45 dongles.

Re: The Framework is the most exciting laptop I've used

#972

Post by rualca » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 11:26 AM UTC

strix_varius wrote: post #323

ericpauley wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I need some convincing here. How is the "modular port" concept any different than a universal port with dongles (i.e., how Macs have been since 2016). To me the fact that the port attachments are recessed is little more than a gimmick. Especially as all of my devices have transitioned to USB-C anyway, dongles/"modular ports" feel more like a stopgap measure than one requiring a permanent form factor change.

I find it hilarious that we spend multiple thousands of dollars on sleek, elegant hardware and then hook up chunky plastic dongles to overcome their bad hardware interfaces. So I love the idea of these ports (agreed, they're basically "recessed dongles"). I couldn't lose them / forget them. They wouldn't take up space in my bag while I'm traveling. I could "set and forget" them to perfectly match whatever desktop / d…

> I find it hilarious that we spend multiple thousands of dollars on sleek, elegant hardware and then hook up chunky plastic dongles to overcome their bad hardware interfaces.

I don't understand how anyone can come up with that conclusion. I mean, your "cheap plastic dongles" jab is actually a testament to the extent of how superb it's interoperability is. I mean, you're for some reason complaining that we are free to even plug in "cheap plastic dongles" to a high-end device when in reality this means that we can even plug in the cheapest "plastic dongles" and expect it to work. How is this a bad thing?

Back to the "cheap plastic dongles" complain, I do use one from time to time, and the reason is quite simple: I had USB-A devices which I use for years but I also have a couple of laptops which only pack USB-C ports. Should I throw away perfectly good hardware just because a random guy on the internet dislikes cheap plastic dongles? Should I base my purchasing decisions on whether a laptop supports legacy ports? Or should I just spend $10 on a dongle intended to be used occasionally and stop worrying about inane details?

Those who prefer spending their time on relevant things don't even realize that complaining about the proper etiquete of pairing peripherals with computers is a reason for anyone to waste their time. Why do you?

Re: The Framework is the most exciting laptop I've used

#973

Post by rualca » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 11:45 AM UTC

biztos wrote: post #515

strix_varius wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hilarious that we spend multiple thousands of dollars on sleek, elegant hardware and then hook up chunky plastic dongles to overcome their bad hardware interfaces. So I love the idea of these ports (agreed, they're basically "recessed dongles"). I couldn't lose them / forget them. They wouldn't take up space in my bag while I'm traveling. I could "set and forget" them to perfectly match whatever desktop / d…

The crazy thing here is that it’s not so hard to hit the standard set of “pro” ports — USB-C x 4 (new standard blabla) USB-A x 2 SD x 1 HDMI x 1 Phone/Mic I applaud the modular approach but Apple’s donglevision was the pure distillation of user-hostility between the Bean-Counter in Chief and the SVP, Thin Stuff. And all the industrial sheep who followed them. May we all recover…

> The crazy thing here is that it’s not so hard to hit the standard set of “pro” ports —

Given that the cheapest USB hub allows you to plug in half a dozen USB-A devices and SD cards, and given that frequently they are not used at all by anyone, why would it be preferable to add 3 dedicated ports instead of just using one of the four available USB-C ports?

The same goes to the HDMI and phone/mic ports.

In fact, nowadays you have monitors that not only support video over USB-C but also serve as USB-A hubs, which means that with a single USB-C connector you can get everything you mentioned in your example.

Re: The Framework is the most exciting laptop I've used

#974

Post by scoopertrooper » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 12:52 PM UTC

gregmac wrote: post #935

pavon wrote: post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, being limited to only 4 ports is a complete non-starter for me especially when you are required to use one of them to charge the laptop. So practically everybody is going to end up filling one of those modular ports with a USB-C module, when they could have easily fit two dedicated USB-C ports in the same space, with no practical loss in expandability.

In the future if another alternative to USB-C PD arrives, you could presumably swap out to that module (of course, presuming it's otherwise compatible with the internals). Also, is there any reason to believe someone wouldn't make a two-port USB-C module provided the market for such a thing exists? Maybe off-the-shelf ICs to do this aren't available (which would make this more expensive and thus less likely), but tha…

> In the future if another alternative to USB-C PD arrives, you could presumably swap out to that module (of course, presuming it's otherwise compatible with the internals).

The module itself works over USB-C PD, so the only effect of such a module would be to convert the new standard back to USB-C PD with all its limitations, plus the cost of conversion.

Re: The Framework is the most exciting laptop I've used

#975

Post by tomxor » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

wokwokwok wrote: post #867

tomxor wrote: post #730

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> already a Mac user [...] and has nicer software Without starting flames... let's agree this is subjective. For many people the options for the Framework are preferable.

Perhaps, but I think it’s a fair comment to say that more effort has been put into making it nice, objectively, than any Linux desktop alternative. Maybe some folk prefer the alternatives, and that’s fair, but if you did some pretty objective metrics of bugs, visual inconsistencies, user workflows for standard tasks (like adding new hardware…) well, it’s impossible to deny that Apple has significantly invested in mak…

... By subjective, I do not mean KDE vs Gnome vs Windows Desktop vs MacOS Desktop and all the Desktop Apps. FOSS is more than these types of things, I don't care about that stuff, it's just noise to me, the less of it is the better... Values are subjective, I value different types of things, but at the same time I am aware the primary values that DEs and big desktop apps concern themselves with are the most important to a large set of users, and that's ok - but you are ignoring the values outside of that area.

It's like I'm using my bike to ride down a mountain... you are using your bike to do city racing and don't understand why skinny tires and fixed gear and foot straps are not important to me.

Re: The Framework is the most exciting laptop I've used

#976

Post by alfor » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 2:08 PM UTC

Every connector and moving part is a cost and failure point. There is a reason why everything is moving in the other direction. It’s going to be more expensive more bulky more flaky than the same components in a more integrated system.

Re: The Framework is the most exciting laptop I've used

#977

Post by IE6 » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 2:28 PM UTC

ThatMedicIsASpy wrote: post #266

IE6 wrote: post #43

As a long time thinkpad user I love mine. Only problem I have now is my go-to OS Ubuntu does a really bad job of fractional scaling out of the box and none of the workarounds seem to really solve the problem. Sadly the crappy screens on my thinkpads more or less "hid" this problem from me for years.

as a thinkpad user - there is no keyboard comparable to it. and that is one of the most important component (in a laptop) to me

I agree. I really like the keyboard on the original Google Pixelbook, the Pixelbook Go, as well as the Framework. Nothing compares to the pre-chiclet Thinkpad keyboard though (IMHO).

Re: The Framework is the most exciting laptop I've used

#978

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

nomel wrote: post #423

paxys wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The modular port is a universal port with dongles. Except that (1) it doesn't take extra space outside of your computer, (2) it is cheaper than mainstream dongles (Apple sells USB-C to HDMI for $70 while the Framework HDMI expansion is $20), and (3) it is fully open source and you can actually print/sell your own.

> Apple sells USB-C to HDMI for $70 Luckily, USB-C means you don't have to buy any accessory from Apple, and have the world of low cost peripherals at your disposal, like the $13 version on Amazon [1]. 1. https://www.amazon.com/gp/slredirect/picassoRedirect.html/re...

[deleted]

Re: The Framework is the most exciting laptop I've used

#979

Post by strix_varius » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

rualca wrote: post #972

strix_varius wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hilarious that we spend multiple thousands of dollars on sleek, elegant hardware and then hook up chunky plastic dongles to overcome their bad hardware interfaces. So I love the idea of these ports (agreed, they're basically "recessed dongles"). I couldn't lose them / forget them. They wouldn't take up space in my bag while I'm traveling. I could "set and forget" them to perfectly match whatever desktop / d…

> I find it hilarious that we spend multiple thousands of dollars on sleek, elegant hardware and then hook up chunky plastic dongles to overcome their bad hardware interfaces. I don't understand how anyone can come up with that conclusion. I mean, your "cheap plastic dongles" jab is actually a testament to the extent of how superb it's interoperability is. I mean, you're for some reason complaining that we are free t…

The point of the original comment seems to have gone right over your head.

> So I love the idea of these ports (agreed, they're basically "recessed dongles").

It's juxtaposing two types of dongles: the common, cheap, plastic ones, and the sleek, integrated ones from Framework's laptop, in order to show that Framework's aligns better with the design ethos of the device itself.

> Should I throw away perfectly good hardware just because a random guy on the internet dislikes cheap plastic dongles? Should I base my purchasing decisions on whether a laptop supports legacy ports?

Again, you're missing the point. Both of these types of dongles will support your USB-A devices without you throwing anything away in your pique. One will just look good, feel good, and integrate with the machine you're using, while the other won't.

Re: The Framework is the most exciting laptop I've used

#980

Post by CogitoCogito » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

darzu wrote: post #963

CogitoCogito wrote: post #962

“ Mine was delivered at the end of Aug. I got it set up by the first of September and have been using it ever since. Yesterday, I put my 2019 Thinkpad on my pile of "laptops to refurbish and donate." I've bought a new Thinkpad almost every year since 2006. I think that's over.” I can’t really fathom why anyone would buy laptops at this rate. It seems so incredibly wasteful. The author is free to ship me his 2019 lapt…

Your last two sentences contradict your first two. He says several times that he carefully donates his laptops.

Honestly I have no idea what contradiction you're referring to.

Regardless, his donating the laptops doesn't mean he needs to buy new ones. Why is he going through them so fast in the first place? If he really wants to give laptops away, why not just buy new laptops and give them to people? Or why not just take the money he would put to new laptops and donate the cash to people? Given his actions up until now, I would be willing to bet that he would just dump the Framework laptop and buy a new one (or another) whenever the first (replaceable) component fails. He seems like a paragon of waste of resources. I don't understand why he considers the Framework as necessary for him.