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Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

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Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#201

Post by criley2 »

refulgentis wrote: post #122
misiti3780 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - but do you think if they did that the haters would stop hating ?

Assuming by hater you mean "someone who is scared by Full Self Driving including cars veering into pedestrians", it'd help me: I'm in an urban area and don't have a car, and I'd be lying if I claimed I wasn't always scared when I see a Tesla approach when I'm in a crosswalk, I'm never sure if Full Self Driving is on or not.

Here's my hater take: "Full Self Driving" is an absolutely dangerous and egregious marketing lie. The vehicles are not full self driving and require by law a driver capable of taking over at a moments notice.

I do not believe that Tesla's technology will ever achieve "Full self driving" (levels 4 or 5, where a driver isn't required https://www.nhtsa.gov/technology-innovation/automated-vehicl...), and the labeling of their "conditional automation" system as "full self driving" is an absolute travesty.

People do honestly think they have bought a self driving car. The marketing lie absolutely tricks people.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#202

Post by joakleaf »

ChrisKnott wrote: post #63

Maximise the video and watch the left hand HUD pane from 0:10 to 0:11. The dotted black line coming from the front of the car (which I am assuming is the intended route) quickly snaps from straight ahead, to a hair pin right, to a normal right turn. Ignoring the fact that the right turn happened to be into a pedestrian crossing with people on it - what was the car even trying to do? The sat-nav shows it should have j…

As I understood the Tesla AI presentations the path is determined using a Monte Carlo Beamsearch which looks for a feasible path while optimizing an objective that includes minimizing sideways g-forces and keeping the paths derivatives low (smooth path).

Form the videos I have seen this fails often (in that the path doesn’t go straight even if it can). Knowing a bit about randomized met heuristics myself, I am not surprised.

I think, they need to perform some post processing on these paths (a low iteration local search).

I think, they should also start with a guess (like just go straight here, or do a standard turn), and then check if the guess is ok. I think, that could help with a lot of the problems they have.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#203

Post by toast0 »

freeone3000 wrote: post #165
mwint wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, nothing should ever be built unless it can be 100% correct immediately. I’m stunned that it hasn’t, so far as we know, actually hit anything yet. I’m not sure how, but clearly they’re doing something right between choosing drivers and writing software.

There were several high publicity collisions with a Tesla colliding into stationary objects -- a highway barricade [1], a blue truck [2], a parked police car[3], two instances of a parked ambulance[4]... Teslas driving themselves hit objects all the time. 1. https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Business/tes... 2. Ibid 3. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mercurynews.com/2020/07/14/... 4. https://www.google.…

So, devil's advocate. We know the Autopilot ignores stationary objects, so a lane with a parked vehicle (emergency or otherwise) is therefore a reasonable place to travel at the set speed on the cruise control, etc.

But, I believe this discussion is about the new FSD software which is supposed to be more capable. Have we had reports about the new one doing the old tricks?

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#204

Post by xxs »

darkmarmot wrote: post #154
ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've made this argument here a few times and am always shot down, but I think its important to highlight that the airline industry has an extremely robust history of automation and HCI in critical transportation scenarios and it seems to me that all the lessons that we have learned have been chucked out the window with self-driving cars. Being able to effectively reason about what the automation is doing is such an i…

I recently avoided a startup prospect because they were looking to build a car OS that wasn't hard real-time. The very idea that they're trying to develop such things that might intermittently pause to do some garbage collection is freaking terrifying.

What has hard real time have to do with garbage collection? You can have concurrent GCs (with [sub]millisecond pauses, or no Stop-the-world at all) but you also need 'hard real time' OS to begin with. Heck, even opening files is far from real-time.

Then you need: not-blocking data strcutures, not just lock-free - that are much easier to develop. Pretty much you need forward guarantees on any data structure you'd use.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#206

Post by liber8 »

aaroninsf wrote: post #175
ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've made this argument here a few times and am always shot down, but I think its important to highlight that the airline industry has an extremely robust history of automation and HCI in critical transportation scenarios and it seems to me that all the lessons that we have learned have been chucked out the window with self-driving cars. Being able to effectively reason about what the automation is doing is such an i…

Something I do not understand: there are keys difference between automation in e.g. aircraft, and what Tesla at al are failing at, e.g., how constrained the environment is; and what the exposure is to anomalous conditions is; and what the opportunity window usually is to turn control back over to a human. The thing I don't understand is, we have a much more comparable environment in ground travel: federal highways. I…

I'm on my third Tesla. FSD on highways has improved so much in the last 6 years. On my first Tesla, autopilot would regularly try to kill you by running you into a gore point or median (literally once per trip on my usual commute). I now can't even remember the last time I had an issue on the highway.

Anywhere else is basically a parlor trick. Yes, it sorta works, a lot of the time, but you have to monitor it so closely that it isn't really beneficial. As you point out, its going to take some serious advances (which in all likelihood are 30+ years away) for FSD to reliably work in city centers.

I think the issue you've highlighted is one of governance. There's only so much Tesla can do regarding highways. You really need the government to step in to mandate coordination of the type I think you're envisioning. And the government is pretty much guaranteed to fuck it up and adopt some dumb standard that kills all innovation after about 6 months, so it never actually becomes usable.

I think automakers will eventually figure this out themselves. As you say, there are too many benefits for this not to happen organically. Once vehicles can talk to each other, everything will change.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#208

Post by sleepybrett »

rjp0008 wrote: post #86
brown9-2 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People aren’t bothered by how close the car came to the pedestrians - it’s the fact that the autopilot was programmed to go in a straight line and at an intersection decided to steer into a crosswalk. Not to mention the fact that it seems entirely legal for a company like Tesla to test such dangerous functionality on public streets with other drivers and pedestrians, with zero permission or regulation.

> the autopilot was programmed to go in a straight line and at an intersection decided to steer into a crosswalk. Agree this is a weird and very concerning bug. > Not to mention the fact that it seems entirely legal for a company like Tesla to test such dangerous functionality on public streets with other drivers and pedestrians, with zero permission or regulation. This driver seems to be someone who I would be ok wi…

The problem, as I see it, is that the longer driver uses the autopilot feature the less attention they will pay to it as long as it doesn't do something nuts like this. My understanding is that this occurred soon after a new 'beta' update to the autopilot system. I'm not sure how this is surfaced to the user, if you need to opt into this new version etc.

My fear is that a new version of the autopilot system could have new bugs introduced that could disrupt the navigation on a route that the user has confidence that the previous version of the autopilot could handle. They commute on route x every day and over time they've gained confidence in the autopilot on that route. This new update however is going to run them into some obstruction due to a bug. That obstruction might be those monorail pylons we see in the seattle video or it might be a crosswalk. A driver who had confidence in the autopilot might be well distracted having confidence in his automation and not be able to correct the situation before tragedy.

IMO autopilot should be banned until it can be proved to be 100% safe. I don't think we can get there until roads are outfitted with some kind of beaconing system that sensors in the car can read and cars on the road are potentially networked together cooperatively... and only then to be enabled on roads with those markers/beacons.

People in this thread deciding that the system is safe because it's no worse than a drunk driver or student driver are missing the point. We absorb those hazards into the system because they present only a handful agents in the system. Out of 100,000 drivers in a rush hour flow, how many are students and/or drunk.. probably very few. However as teslas keep selling with this feature, our new class of hazard agents keeps going up and up and up.

Hell we wouldn't even have to mandate it to be illegal at the political level. Perhaps the insurance industry will do it for us.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#209

Post by silisili »

AlotOfReading wrote: post #185
silisili wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To play devil's advocate...and because I'm just not that educated in the space, is this really a huge deal? If we're talking couple ms at a time delays, isn't that still vastly superior to what a human could achieve?

If you can set a guaranteed maximum on the delays (regardless of what those limits are), you're hard real-time by definition. The horror is that they weren't building a system that could support those guarantees.

I see, thanks.

What if say, a system is written against an indeterminate timed GC like say, Azul or Go's, but code is written in a way that proves GC times never exceed X, whether by theory or stress testing. Is this still seen as 'unguaranteed'?

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#210

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

mwint wrote: post #112
rwcarlsen wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying the tesla self driving capability is on par with humans driving at near their worst in a panic'd sort of circumstance. Great!

Right, nothing should ever be built unless it can be 100% correct immediately. I’m stunned that it hasn’t, so far as we know, actually hit anything yet. I’m not sure how, but clearly they’re doing something right between choosing drivers and writing software.

What hasn’t hit anything yet? A Tesla on autopilot?

Surely.

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