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Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

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Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#321

Post by chitowneats »

_ea1k wrote: post #313
chitowneats wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What evidence do you have for your claim? An anecdote or two from your own life? How is that any more scientific than what you claim to be decrying? In the U.S. at least, there is a mass testing regime that many must submit to for work, school, etc. Are you suggesting those who have tested positive in these situations are "making up stories"?

Anecdotally, there are people who say it only based upon symptoms. I'd even argue that they are probably right, but its fair to say that they have any way of validating or proving that knowledge.

I agree that if someone is doing this, they do not have definitive proof.

The comment I was responding to claimed "most" people are making claims without proof. Despite the hundreds of millions (billions?) of covid tests that have been administered throughout the pandemic in the U.S.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#322

Post by ufo »

treesknees wrote: post #296
causi wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Necessary and useful are two vastly different things. My state is throwing expired vaccine into the garbage. I'd take a booster even if it only made me five percent safer.

This is the part I don't understand. There is an oversupply of vaccines, why not let me go get my 3rd shot if it's already here? I understand the desire to take those "extra" vaccines and ship them to other countries, but if the vaccine is already distributed out around the country, it would be more expensive and hazardous to collect them back up safely than to just administer boosters to those who want it.

The vaccines that are already distributed were distributed considering the original plan of only two doses per person. More vaccines would need to be ordered to get enough for a third dose.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#323

Post by BeetleB »

hellbannedguy wrote: post #224
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hospital beds are overrun with unvaccinated Covid patients, there is less room for others Was in Jackson Hole for Labor Day weekend. They border Idaho, whose voluntarily unvaccinated have filled its hospitals. In four days I met as many nurses and one doctor who quit out of frustration. They could no longer empathise with their patients, each describing a visceral anger at tending to ICUs of COVID patients, all unv…

I don't understand their frustration. There's not much they can do for a patient once that patient is admitted to the ICU. Hospitals should have been setting up Covid wards, or tents. The hospital had enough time. Other than intubation there's not much. I guess if you are important enough you get those coveted antibodies that were donated, or blood thinning drugs if you have blood clots in your lungs. I've never met…

> Hospitals should have been setting up Covid wards, or tents.

They have, at least where I am. As demand goes up, they've even shut down whole clinics to reserve them for COVID patients.

> The hospital had enough time.

They definitely did not have enough time to train and hire new nurses and doctors.

They are not quitting out of ethics, ego or pay. They are quitting because they are overworked (more patients per doctor), and putting their own lives at risk because people made a choice not to get vaccinated.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#324

Post by xienze »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #149
Ambolia wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems more an acknowledgement that zero-Covid is never ever going to happen. At which point not sure if vaccinating outside of risk populations or to control hospitalizations if they are too high makes any sense.

> not sure if vaccinating outside of risk populations or to control hospitalizations if they are too high makes any sense Based on this logic, flu shots are useless. As is any treatment without guaranteed success, i.e. most medicine. (Note: prioritising vaccinating when hospitals fill up is programmatically, repeatedly peaking the healthcare system. It will do to it what repeatedly flooring the gas and hard braking w…

> Based on this logic, flu shots are useless

If you believe the reports stating that the flu has basically been eliminated since the start of Covid-19, it seems the shots are indeed pretty useless! All it took was some half-assed masking and social distancing measures, that half the country swears the other half isn't doing. Who knew?

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#325

Post by CyanLite2 »

mchusma wrote: post #139

The whole booster conversation seems like a political game. If you have a vaccine, then your risk of death is far below that of the flu (statistically). If you don't have a vaccine by now, you want covid instead and this booster conversation is irrelevant. Kids are banned from taking anything. So I expect booster or no booster, frankly it just won't matter much at the population scale. I also don't understand the mas…

It's to flatten the curve. Approx 10% of vaccinated still require oxygen and other medical measures. And with hospitals currently at full capacity, boosters are a short-term way to keep the hospitalization numbers low until kids can get vaccinated and every one else has had their chance before we fully open everything up once and for all.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#326

Post by pasquinelli »

CydeWeys wrote: post #142
mchusma wrote: post #139

The whole booster conversation seems like a political game. If you have a vaccine, then your risk of death is far below that of the flu (statistically). If you don't have a vaccine by now, you want covid instead and this booster conversation is irrelevant. Kids are banned from taking anything. So I expect booster or no booster, frankly it just won't matter much at the population scale. I also don't understand the mas…

> Is it to protect the unvaccinated? COVID is not going away, so IMO here we just want everyone in this population to get the disease as fast as possible to get it over with. No we definitely do not want that. There are large deaths of the country where vaccinated people are dying of unrelated conditions simply because hospitals are too full of dying unvaccinated COVID patients. The only way this works is if hospital…

it's really simple: you ration care according to the urgency of need. it's no different than any other event that would bring more people to the hospital than usual.

i've heard stories like what you're talking about. they don't make much sense. hospitals running out of oxygen? get more oxygen. that's why we have roads and trucks. not enough beds in the icu? build more. i think often about the start of the pandemic, before it got over here. i saw a story on the news that china had put up several hospitals practically overnight to handle the influx of patients. but here there's nothing but lame excuses. when i hear that kind of stuff it feels like i'm talking to someone that owes me money but doesn't have it.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#327

Post by ipv6ipv4 »

adevx wrote: post #228
NDizzle wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how the Israel data is being misinterpreted. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_F6vV0XoAMbaNO?format=jpg&name=... https://imgur.com/a/fzMdPFE I guess ignoring data to push an agenda can be defined as "misinterpretation", fair enough. Carry on.

It's telling that linking to factual hard data is being downvoted.

It’s not hard data. It’s nonsense. There are so many confounding factors that comparing Israel and Sweden is non-sensical.

Hard data is easily available directly from the horse’s mouth [1].

As of today, in Israel, for age 60+, per 100K population. Unvaxxed are 4.5X more likely to be seriously ill compared to 2 shot vaccinated and 40X compared to 3 shot.

For under 60. The same ratios per 100K are 3x and 10x.

1. https://datadashboard.health.gov.il/COVID-19/general

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#328

Post by spywaregorilla »

refurb wrote: post #295
spywaregorilla wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone were struggling with alcoholism, and I offered them an FDA approved shot to remove their addiction to alcohol, I would consider them fairly stupid if they refused it. Handling diseases and addictions is a long term struggle, not similar to a one time choice at all. It is orders of magnitude easier to get a covid shot than to rid yourself of an addiction.

I’m glad your not a doctor then? First off, the vaccine does not eliminate the risk of Covid. If you went to an alcoholic and said “this shot has a 90% chance of curing you of alcoholism but had side effects and you might end up quitting anyways” would you still call them an idiot for hesitating? Type 2 diabetics can prevent most of the complications if they adhere to a strict diet and medication regimen. When they e…

> If you went to an alcoholic and said “this shot has a 90% chance of curing you of alcoholism but had side effects and you might end up quitting anyways” would you still call them an idiot for hesitating?

Depends on the side effects obviously. If clinical trials revealed nothing but rare allergic reactions to shots themselves and priors based on established medical knowledge predicted a very low chance of anything unusual happening over the very very long term, it'd be a no brainer. Nobody just quits alcoholism. It's by definition a difficult process.

> Type 2 diabetics can prevent most of the complications if they adhere to a strict diet and medication regimen. When they end up getting a limb amputated do you call them idiots as well?

I would call them idiots if they were presented a single shot to cure them of type 2 diabetes and they decided not to, then lost their limbs.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#329

Post by merrywhether »

sseagull wrote: post #293
merrywhether wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a serious disconnect between public health experts and the general public, and the experts have continued to not learn that lesson over the last year plus. It’s mind-boggling. Earlier in the summer, we lifted mask mandates “because the vaccines were preventing disease”, and regardless of the technical facts behind that decision, the perception was reality for the general public. Now they are trying to walk th…

> Public health officials need to understand that their primary job is managing public perception of a situation first and foremost. They can go push their glasses up and pedantically spout off technical corrections behind closed doors as much as they want, but in public they have to connect and empathize with normal humans. So what should they have said in the beginning? If they don't give technical reasons, they wi…

> So what should they have said in the beginning?

Probably something like “Masks aren’t proven to help yet, but unless covid is unlike any other respiratory disease they probably won’t hurt.” Yes, this could’ve caused a rush on them (though maybe that would’ve alleviated some of the need in hospitals?) and we would’ve had to deal with that, but lying to people in the name “for their own good” is not empathizing with them.

Getting too deep into technical reasons in the middle of such an event is not understanding the definition of teachable moment. Most people aren’t open to learning deep knowledge when their fear or other emotions are up, but it can take real skill to avoid diving into details as an expert. And I have some sympathy for people getting metaphorical microphones shoved in their face, but that just goes back to my point about public health (and medical people in general) needing to know that their job is as much soft skill as hard.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#330

Post by iszomer »

chitowneats wrote: post #223
devwastaken wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of those people don't actually know they had COVID. They make up stories that "they've already had it". Remember that vaccinated still get COVID, those numbers include them.

What evidence do you have for your claim? An anecdote or two from your own life? How is that any more scientific than what you claim to be decrying? In the U.S. at least, there is a mass testing regime that many must submit to for work, school, etc. Are you suggesting those who have tested positive in these situations are "making up stories"?

There were a few stories that called into question the effectiveness of these tests ranging from PCR, antibody, antigen, etc.
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