NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings • Hacker News Board

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#911

Post by tomjakubowski » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:21 AM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #544

Daishiman wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am in cohort #1. I don't want to continue to increase the chances of breakthrough mutations and I do not want others to do so. I do not want a substantial number of people getting sick and having to use collective resources to heal them at the expense of others because of a collectively bad choice. I do not want to substitute, work overtime, or have reduced productivity due to this. While vaccinated people are fair…

> every couple of years for the rest of my life. That ship has sailed? Covid is not going away, ever. It's politically impossible to mandate 100% vaccination, and even if you could, there's still animal reserves. The best case scenario is that covid becomes like the common cold, and you can mostly avoid it with occasional booster shots. I wish everyone would get vaccinated too, but let's be realistic. How many years…

> That ship has sailed? Covid is not going away, ever.

Why not? We managed to eradicate smallpox. There was political will all over the world to vaccinate almost everyone, and it worked. What's so different about Covid?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#912

Post by logicchains » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:27 AM UTC

titzer wrote: post #843

mrfusion wrote: post #204

Imagine showing this article to people pre-pandemic, it'd be near universally reviled. We collectively lost our minds in March 2020.

Don't forget the part where 600,000 people died and literally every single measure to combat that was instantly turned into a political wedge issue, and then when the literal Science miracle cure arrived, people wouldn't take it because they are selfish, confused, afraid of needles, and hate each other.

The average age of death for those people was 78; if not for the media making such a fuss of it most people wouldn't even have noticed.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#913

Post by natchy » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:30 AM UTC

beaner wrote: post #782

XorNot wrote: post #774

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations Those populations are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves, and don't need you to do it for them. You have an opinion, don't dress it up in someone else's situation. The current leading population for vaccination rate in Alabama is the band of majority black districts (and subsequently case numbers have gone down and down a…

Great, let's just be consistent and take this perspective when it comes to voter ID laws, too.

It wouldn’t be inconsistent to advocate for voter ID laws and let minorities disagree.

His point was not speaking for minorities.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#914

Post by Taniwha » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:34 AM UTC

bingohbangoh wrote: post #576

Barrin92 wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you are fully vaccinated, you are at essentially no risk of serious illness from SARS-CoV2. Terrible first order logic. The threat from the virus is not only immediate risk to the individual, it is also further transmissions increasing the risk of creating new breakthrough variants. Every infected person is a gamble that risks nullifying the effectiveness of vaccines, so the goal must be to bring down infections…

Won’t there always be a variant popping up somewhere in some part of the world though? The idea that “if we all got vaccinated, we could have zero variants” reeks of “zero COVID” thinking

Think about the end game here - we have evidence of ~4 covid viruses that have adapted to humans, one of which may have been responsible for an epidemic a couple of 100 years ago. Now days they are relatively benign, they make up part of what we call "the common cold".

This is historical evidences that covid viruses in humans evolve to become relatively benign, likely this happens faster if we let it kill more people more quickly, but, well, modern medicine. So what will it take for the current covid variant to reach this state - we'll need it to evolve a benign version that out competes the current covid-delta .

A benign version of a virus that out competes its more lethal cousins is something that we also call a "live vaccine".

So why shouldn't we help it along? if we know it's going to happen naturally why not make it happen faster? past attempts to generate live vaccines have mostly worked but have not always gone well, but they were made with technologies that essentially consisted of whacking them with a mallet and hoping they would stay dead - the mRNA vaccines are much more like engineering. Why not take an existing relatively benign vaccine and fit it out with a protein coat similar enough to C19 and release that?

Obviously this is not something one would do blindly, it would require lots of testing, especially with immunocompromised people. And testing (without releasing it early) would be hard - tested people would need to remain in lockdown.

Of course the crazy anti-vaxxers would scream bloody blue murder - but given that their current propaganda already paints the current vaccines as "live vaccines" and warns people to stay away from the vaccinated that horse would seem to have already bolted

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#915

Post by natchy » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:36 AM UTC

davidf18 wrote: post #238

timr wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

I live in NYC. I can't tell you how important it is to keep people who are unvaccinated away from those of us who are vaccinated. For those that don't know, NYC has very crowded indoors situations because of the cost of real estate. We are all close together. No sympathy whatsoever for those who refuse to get a vaccine and even offered $100 to get the vaccine. People never have the right to infect another human being…

> even offered $100 to get the vaccine

Must be one hell of a pandemic if that is a greater incentive than immunity.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#916

Post by dredmorbius » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:36 AM UTC

michannne wrote: post #781

sprafa wrote: post #94

By not getting vaccinated you are pushing the onus of responsibility to society. When you occupy a bed in a hospital for a preventable disease (like covid post-vaccine) you are a detriment to society. You are occupying precious resources because you were dumb. Just dumb. No ifs or buts - we need to start calling out stupidity again. We already handle people occupying hospital resources with self inflicted diseases, l…

You are looking at things from the perspective of being vaccinated. Yeah you are fine because you got vaccinated. But because you are vaccinated, you now pose a risk to all unvaccinated people because you now have a non-zero chance of transmitting. In other words, by getting vaccinated you pushed the onus of responsibility onto society. See how this is a zero-sum game? Either everyone gets vaccinated, and maintains t…

Vaccination:

- Reduces disease incidence by 8x

- Reduces hospitalisation incidence by 25x

- Reduces mortality incidence by 25x

Source, CDC, 29 July 2021: https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/do... (PDF) p. 3.

Whether or not SARS-COV-2 becomes endemic and chronic isn't clear, though that does appear a possibility. It's been detected in 40% of tested wild deer population in 2021 across four US states:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.29.454326v1....

A persistent animal reservoir in North America, and presumably, other continents, in multiple species (deer are simply where we've looked so far), would suggest a substantial risk of chronic Covid, continuously evolving and mutating. My own very nonexpert concern is that COVID-19 will be with us for at least another 2--3 years and quite possibly well beyond that.

Get the jab already.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#917

Post by chadcmulligan » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:37 AM UTC

throwitaway1235 wrote: post #875

chadcmulligan wrote: post #866

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really believe that mandatory vaccination is the start of some expansion of government checking on everything? I'm seriously asking, like you already need a drivers license to drive, you put in taxes and the government keeps those in a central database, if you have kids in school they need to be vaccinated in most places I read in this thread. Why would covid vaccination suddenly trigger some government panopt…

If this is a good faith question that's fine. A health passport to buy groceries is the hill to die on because you are consenting to a lifetime of injections just to live. No one should be under the impression that the next booster won't be mandated. You give these people an inch and they take a mile. And it's also not a government thing. I would think that the White House is upset with New York's decision because th…

Thanks for answering. I do feel that government isn't anywhere near organised enough to exercise this sort of control. I've worked for a couple of different government organisations and they are in general, people who just want to do their job and go home. Like I'm not sure why vaccination cards would be the thing I'd choose if I wanted to control a population, that already has a myriad of different controls anyway (drivers license, tax records etc), when you travel overseas you already need vaccination records for various things, or when you send kids to school. The lifetime of injections is not guaranteed at this stage either, no doubt a better vaccine will come along. Thanks for answering anyway, I'm curious why this is such an emotional issue for some people.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#918

Post by dredmorbius » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:41 AM UTC

compscistd wrote: post #771

heavyset_go wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Adults need to be vaccinated against one before they patronize indoor restaurants, entertainment venues and gyms (completely optional activities and only in the densest city in the US, probably some others will follow) Also, adults that want to attend college classes on campus need to provide schools with proof of vaccination for about a half-dozen diseases. This was the case 20+ years ago, and it's still the case…

So why did vaccinations suddenly become a huge problem with people today? Are these people who were never going to go to college but would have caused a fuss if the school demanded vaccination records? Or is it the right politicizing a health issue with misinformation? Maybe it’s even the left pushing vaccines that suddenly has people reflexively twitching their combative muscles?

Divide-and-conquer tribalistic politics.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#919

Post by michannne » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:44 AM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #916

michannne wrote: post #781

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are looking at things from the perspective of being vaccinated. Yeah you are fine because you got vaccinated. But because you are vaccinated, you now pose a risk to all unvaccinated people because you now have a non-zero chance of transmitting. In other words, by getting vaccinated you pushed the onus of responsibility onto society. See how this is a zero-sum game? Either everyone gets vaccinated, and maintains t…

Vaccination: - Reduces disease incidence by 8x - Reduces hospitalisation incidence by 25x - Reduces mortality incidence by 25x Source, CDC, 29 July 2021: https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/do... (PDF) p. 3. Whether or not SARS-COV-2 becomes endemic and chronic isn't clear, though that does appear a possibility. It's been detected in 40% of tested wild deer population in 2021 across four US stat…

I don't see how any of this is relevant to my comment? I never said the vaccination doesn't work

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#920

Post by dredmorbius » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:49 AM UTC

michannne wrote: post #919

dredmorbius wrote: post #916

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaccination: - Reduces disease incidence by 8x - Reduces hospitalisation incidence by 25x - Reduces mortality incidence by 25x Source, CDC, 29 July 2021: https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/do... (PDF) p. 3. Whether or not SARS-COV-2 becomes endemic and chronic isn't clear, though that does appear a possibility. It's been detected in 40% of tested wild deer population in 2021 across four US stat…

I don't see how any of this is relevant to my comment? I never said the vaccination doesn't work

The vaccine massively reduces the major risks associated with COVID-19. Including the risk of transmission to others.

A fact you seem to be quite pointedly ignoring.

Scale and degree matter.

(That relative rates have to be discussed on HN, a site nominally dedicated to fractions-of-a-percentage conversion-rate optimisations in advertising and sales funnels is ... well, it is.)