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NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#551

Post by pmarreck »

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

Given that the Delta variant is so contagious that it would require 90% vaxxed to achieve herd immunity, I see the situation as largely hopeless for those who fail to see the wisdom of getting vaccinated

The crazy thing is that the knee-jerk backlash against this vaccine has carried over into ALL vaccines for many people... So expect to see measles, polio, etc. etc. all over again thanks to the polarization involved at this point

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#552

Post by mensetmanusman »

vkou wrote: post #104
polote wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This measure can't be a way to create "zero covid spaces" because people who are vaccinated can still transmit the virus (even though less than unvaccinated people, but it doesnt seem to be a 90% reduction either). So the goal here is to increase the vaccination rate. It seems pretty weird to ask the indoor business owners to be the ones who are in charge of controlling that the vaccination rate is increasing and to…

Vaccinated people produce a much lower viral load. The lower the viral load that your body takes in, when you get infected, the less serious your symptoms/the lower your risk of hospitalization and death.

Researchers found that vaccinated people can produce the same viral load as one exhibiting symptoms (and unvaccinated).

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#553

Post by Barrin92 »

timr wrote: post #129
alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

> if you are fully vaccinated, you are at essentially no risk of serious illness from SARS-CoV2.

Terrible first order logic. The threat from the virus is not only immediate risk to the individual, it is also further transmissions increasing the risk of creating new breakthrough variants. Every infected person is a gamble that risks nullifying the effectiveness of vaccines, so the goal must be to bring down infections as strongly as possible.

>We have never before justified such intrusive government policies based on the risks faced by these individuals

we should have. Tolerating disease spread and threats to vulnerable populations when vaccines are available that are practically risk-free (or the risk being magnitudes smaller than the payoff) is ridiculous. Maybe this finally shakes people awake and puts public health and safety to the top of the agenda rather than people throwing tantrums like children about government incursion.

edit: and another point I forgot, with such a significant unvaccinated population we will very likely see surges in admissions in winter again. Public health resources are limited. Unnecessary Covid hospitalizations cause immense opportunity cost in the form of crowding out care and driving costs. Which in many cases other sick people and the public will have to carry.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#554

Post by [deleted] »

thrwwmbkpr wrote: post #507
trhway wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I am vaccinated. I have friends who are vaccinated, and have still gotten COVID. vaccinated people get covid and spread it like unvaccinated[1]. Then what is the point of vaccination mandate? I really don't understand. Add to that that since May CDC stopped counting breakthrough cases which don't result in hospitalizations. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/30/cdc-study-shows-74percent-of... "About three-fourths of p…

Potentially related - "How major media outlets screwed up the vaccine ‘breakthrough’ story" [1]. Outlines media mis-interpretation of an unfinished, internal CDC presentation last week (roughly lines up with your July 30 story). [1] https://www.cjr.org/the_media_today/cdc_date_media_coverage_... I found that while reading daily news from AllSides[2], as recommended in a recent HN thread. I really like it so far. [2]…

[deleted]

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#555

Post by jhgb »

l33tman wrote: post #292
alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

4. You already have had COVID-19 and feel the added (minor) protection by 1-2 vaccine shots gets you into more cons than pros.

The "added protection" is not "minor" in any sense.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#556

Post by maerF0x0 »

nostromo wrote: post #49
ragingrobot wrote: post #6

Without getting into the whole vaccine thing... People need to start protesting with their wallets. People need to talk less and act more. I work in NYC, in an "essential" service. In the beginning myself and other workers were threatened with discipline if we did not show up for work. We were told to go straight home, and stay inside, and do as little as necessary otherwise. Now, this is easy for me, as I am single…

As a former New Yorker... people should vote with their wallets and their feet . New York has become a pretty miserable place to live. And for the privilege of living in a miserable place you pay an exorbitant amount.

One idea i've been musing for a while is that much American grief (high prices, archaic governments etc) seems to stem from a lack of new cities. Say austin is the new hotness, settled in 1800s. What about building a 2000s friendly city in the middle of nowhere and not limiting ourselves to the decisions made in 1800s like where's the water and walking/horse is the only mode of transport?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#557

Post by pmarreck »

timr wrote: post #129
alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

> We have never before justified such intrusive government policies based on the risks faced by these individuals.

Except for that time doctors were given police powers to enforce quarantine during the "Spanish Flu" spikes...

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#558

Post by dcolkitt »

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

> Unless, of course, you think that the vaccine is more dangerous than coronavirus. And then I don't really know what to say.

I'd still encourage everyone to vaccinate for pro-social reasons, but for the young and the healthy I don't think this is such a ridiculous assertion. I'm virtually 100% confident that vaccines are completely safe and effective. However for a large fraction of people they will make you feel like shit for 2-5 days.

Let's just do a quick QALY based tradeoff for a healthy 25-year old. To make it interesting let's also say that she was already previously infected with Covid. The baseline CFR for this age group is approximately 0.004%. For someone with antibodies this number's at least 50% for subsequent infections.

Assuming 70 years of remaining life expectancy, Covid infection would lead to the loss of 12 hours of life expectancy. In contrast, I'd definitely prefer to be dead than live with the post-vaccine symptoms I experienced. And for me the suffering lasted about 96 hours. And I'm not atypical here. In that sense, vaccines are nearly ten times worse from a QALY perspective than the risk of being unvaccinated.

Again, all that being said, I was vaccinated and would encourage everyone else to do the same. But for the typical healthy 20-something, skipping the vaccine isn't necessarily irrational-- just selfish.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#560

Post by tajustice3 »

ok123456 wrote: post #416
tajustice wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ID laws are inherently racist, and have been leveraged by white supremacists for decades to keep POC from enjoying the rights and privileges they're guaranteed under the law. Businesses requiring vaccination IDs are de facto discriminating against POCs and other minorities because POCs and minorities are less likely to have ID, and less likely to be vaccinated.

The coronavirus doesn't discriminate. Edit: Can't reply to the child since it's dead, but for the record, I got my covid vaccinations at an AME church (i.e., black) back in April. Edit 2: >Anecdotal evidence is always useful for bigotry. I went to an AME church (i.e., black) back in April and the church was denied vaccines. No you didn't. > The statistical facts are clear: POCs are much less likely to have access to…

It literally states POCs are less likely to be vaccinated (and have proof of vaccines).

Sorry, facts don't care about your feelings. Mandatory vaccine ID is racist bigotry.

Your concern trolling, poorly.

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