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How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

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Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#601

Post by bayindirh »

smsm42 wrote: post #595
bayindirh wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Try making this trick work when your destination is three levels deep into a different hierarchy. Oh yes, you should have thought about it beforehand and opened two windows and pre-arranged them in a way so you can drag from one to another, because it's so intuitive! I regularly do this to be honest. I drag the file to my home or Dropbox folder and dive from there. I also regularly drag and drop files from finder t…

From you repeated mentions of "Windows" I assume you somehow have the idea there's only two ways things could be - like they are in Windows and like they are on macOS. I haven't used Windows since.... oh my, I dunno, since XP was new and fresh? Maybe a bit later but not for a decade by now. But I've certainly have some habits from using various systems - including Windows. Which hasn't been very intuitive - nobody ca…

> I assume you somehow have the idea there's only two ways things could be...

No, I mentioned old UNIXen, Linux, and other OSes on my other comments. I do not bring them to table since Linux and other UNIXen Desktop Environments are much more flexible and can be customized to much greater extent, so if something feels wrong, it can be modified easily.

I put Windows vs. macOS because they're arguably the most popular consumer OSes on the market right now. Personally I don't use Windows unless I want to play some games (which happens twice a year at most) or need to manage my parents' computers.

I probably came accross as a macOS fanboy, but I'm actually not (honestly sorry about that). I just like the philosophy behind it and how fast and efficiently can work on that. I can work as efficiently on Linux too (and it's my primary OS on my workstations for ~20 years or so).

The thing I don't agree is labeling of any system of being incapable of something while it's certainly capable but this capability is built with a different design/philosophy and works somewhat differently. If these comments were about Windows, I'd be defending it and its heritage. If it was about Linux, I would certainly do the same with the same enthusiasm.

At the end of the day, it's not fanboyism about and OS, but a rather sympathy for the machine. Understanding how its innards work with as a result of different thinking and how one needs to be flexible and needs to look a little differently to the matter at hand, which is a very useful trait to have.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#603

Post by Doxin »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #534
alleyshack wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> basically, you can move around with CMD+Arrow. Up goes up a directory, down goes down a directory (or opens the file). Left / Right go forward / back in history, like a browser. This is really helpful to know - it's one of my biggest bugaboos about using Finder & navigating the Mac GUI. On the other hand, I suspect this kind of obscure key-based shortcut is a big part of why Macs don't feel intuitive to a lot of us…

Yeah, I remember being frustrated about the discoverability when I started using Mac OS. Shortcuts mostly appear in the menus, but I remember one in particular being elusive: cmd + down. I've found it out by asking a friend. I think there is supposed to be a method to the madness, though it's maybe less and less clear nowadays, especially with applications that don't implement them correctly (such as MS Office, elect…

> You can click a menu, press alt, and see the entries change.

That is insane. Who came up with that? Why do some entries lose their ellipsis when you hold alt? How is anyone expected to know any of this?

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#604

Post by eptcyka »

jmrm wrote: post #436
eptcyka wrote: post #396

I can't stress enough how bad apple devices are for the uninitiated. I got my mom an iPad for her birthday, as she needed something to read medical books with color and watch YouTube. It took her a week to get youtube working, and copying over PDFs is still done piecmeal - sending each file from her Windows PC one by one using a messaging app. She tried to install apps, but the app store progress thing was just spinn…

I haven't done something like that on an iPad, but I think that Apple want people to use these devices in a way that every app have their files, like for example iPods used to store the music (you could drop files on the iPod storage but you need iTunes to insert your MP3s on the "player app"). The best thing you could do is looking for a tutorial to do that, and also a software to control that iPad remotely, so you…

I based my purchasing decision on existing tutorials. But a recent iTunes update obsoleted those (iTunes won't manage your books anymore).

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#605

Post by klodolph »

ubercow13 wrote: post #599
klodolph wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're going to have to provide some more details, because I'm trying 1, 2, and 3 in GTK and I can't get ANY of the three options to work. 1. I have a folder open in Gnome's "Files" app. I can't drag it into the dialog--there's nothing draggable. I could go up a level to the enclosing folder, drag the child folder into the save folder, and then go back down a level to the child folder... these extra steps see…

With 1 I think you're right, but you can also drag any file in the folder and it will just locate and highlight it in the GTK filepicker, not actually open it, which achieves the same thing. In Thunar I can also drag the currently open folder (or any parent) from the breadcrumb bar, but this doesn't work in Dolphin. With 2 and 3 - yes you're right I didn't realise that was how it worked on macos! Those are both inter…

On macOS, there's something which I think is called a "bookmark" these days but which used to be called an "alias", and it's used to record a reference to a file. It's basically a data structure that contains a bunch of metadata for a file, so if the file moves, there's a fallback process which locates the file and updates the data structure with the new metadata. It's fairly simple as you'd expect, although it's much more than just an inode. The data structure can just be an object in memory or it can be serialized to a file on disk.

You could implement this yourself on Linux, for sure, but it's been around on macOS since System 7 appeared in 1991 and everything uses it.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#606

Post by vladvasiliu »

Doxin wrote: post #603
vladvasiliu wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I remember being frustrated about the discoverability when I started using Mac OS. Shortcuts mostly appear in the menus, but I remember one in particular being elusive: cmd + down. I've found it out by asking a friend. I think there is supposed to be a method to the madness, though it's maybe less and less clear nowadays, especially with applications that don't implement them correctly (such as MS Office, elect…

> You can click a menu, press alt, and see the entries change. That is insane. Who came up with that? Why do some entries lose their ellipsis when you hold alt? How is anyone expected to know any of this?

I think it's in the "mental model". You're kind of "expected" to know that "option" will produce an "optional / alternate" behavior. It's kind of like windows. How are you supposed to know that win+left will move the window to the side?

At least, on macOS, if you press OPT, the entries will change. On Windows, if you click right → delete, the file isn't deleted. It's moved to the recycle bin. "How are you supposed to know that?". On Mac, it says "move to trash" or similar. Now say you don't want that. If you hold Shift and click delete, it actually deletes it. But if you hold Shift while looking at the Windows menu, it still says "delete".

There are quite a lot of "have to know" things in other OSs, too. They each come with a mental model which may be closer or further from the user's.

I think the issues we see nowadays come up because many apps work the same everywhere, and people may switch between systems more often, so figure since works the same, everything works the same.

It's also hard to think that what comes naturally is actually a mental model that's been ingrained and not something "absolute".

I guess this is why computers used to have manuals, but who reads those anymore?

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#607

Post by throwaddzuzxd »

mthoms wrote: post #346
throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the intrusive updates that guarantee I'll have to wait for an undefined time before I can get some work done This is a common criticism but it's entirely false. Windows offers a lot more way to delay or refuse updates than macOS. When macOS wants to update, the best you can do is "Ask again tomorrow". And pray you see the popup before it reboots in 60 seconds.

I'm confused. If I click "ask again tomorrow", it asks again tomorrow. But, I still haven't figured out how to delay Windows updates (granted I haven't looked into it seriously yet since I only use it for casual gaming). The point is, the default UI allows users to delay they update on MacOS easily, while Windows does not.

Windows Update has a clearly displayed "delay for 7 days" button. There's also advanced settings with more knobs.

macOS just nags you everyday.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#608

Post by throwaddzuzxd »

smsm42 wrote: post #595
bayindirh wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Try making this trick work when your destination is three levels deep into a different hierarchy. Oh yes, you should have thought about it beforehand and opened two windows and pre-arranged them in a way so you can drag from one to another, because it's so intuitive! I regularly do this to be honest. I drag the file to my home or Dropbox folder and dive from there. I also regularly drag and drop files from finder t…

From you repeated mentions of "Windows" I assume you somehow have the idea there's only two ways things could be - like they are in Windows and like they are on macOS. I haven't used Windows since.... oh my, I dunno, since XP was new and fresh? Maybe a bit later but not for a decade by now. But I've certainly have some habits from using various systems - including Windows. Which hasn't been very intuitive - nobody ca…

This is always the argument used by fanboys, "you're used to Windows crappy way". For them there's no way macOS can actually be suboptimal in its own ways, even without comparing it to something else.

I love Apple products and to be honest I generally like macOS too but these responses are ridiculous.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#609

Post by throwaddzuzxd »

socialdemocrat wrote: post #502
throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Finder is atrocious. It's the worst default macOS app and probably the worst program period I've ever used. It's been so dumbed down that it's basically unusable for anyone slightly experienced. - There's no way to create an empty file - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned - ~~Tags are useless and just take up space…

There are certainly issues with finder, but your complaints really just highlight that you are more experienced with the windows and not accustomed to Mac. One of the problems addressing some of the issues you raised Is that you are not really explaining what you want to do. All you do is complain why Mac doesn’t work exactly like windows. Instead you should figure out what you want to do and explore and learn how th…

> and not accustomed to Mac

If I'm not accustomed to macOS after using it exclusively for more than 2 years, that shows where it sucks. There's plenty of things that I love on macOS: Spotlight, three-finger moves, even the weird fullscreen mode because it works so well with the pad. But the finder just sucks. That's it. It's not the end of the world and doesn't make macOS crappy. It's just a bad app.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#610

Post by throwaddzuzxd »

dsego wrote: post #364
throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does one discover Cmd-Opt-V? Even with a right click after copying a file, there's no "Move" option. Your explanation makes sense but doesn't really seem supported with Finder's UX since the "Move" terminology doesn't exist anywhere

Usually the option key uncovers more available options in context menus. > How does one discover Cmd-Opt-V? Keyboard shortcuts are not usually meant to be "discovered" (how do you discover ctrl+x?). You can learn and memorize them. Although, there is a common theme with the option/alt modifier on the mac.

> Keyboard shortcuts are not usually meant to be "discovered" (how do you discover ctrl+x?).

Of course they are, don't be silly. Even in Finder, the "Édition" menu (I don't know how it's called in english) lists the keyboard shortcuts next to their names (copy, paste...). When you don't select anything, it even shows "Cut (Cmd+X)" grayed out! It just disappears when yous elect a file/folder

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