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How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

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Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#581

Post by icedistilled »

rjayatilleka wrote: post #355
throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Finder is atrocious. It's the worst default macOS app and probably the worst program period I've ever used. It's been so dumbed down that it's basically unusable for anyone slightly experienced. - There's no way to create an empty file - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned - ~~Tags are useless and just take up space…

FYI you can do cut in Mac. Do Cmd-C to copy and the Cmd-Option-V to cut-paste. For whatever reason, Windows has cut attached to selecting the file, but Mac has it attached to pasting the file.

wow I did not realize mac had that. As an original mac user cutting a file always seemed like a terrible idea when I saw the option on windows. What if you cut it but then then get interrupted before pasting? File gone! The mac way seems safer.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#582

Post by icedistilled »

wraptile wrote: post #70
rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

As someone who recently switched to MacOs (not by their own choice) there are hundreds of little annoying, broken or inconsistent OS things I find. One of my favorites just happened yesterday with finder - I was trying to figure out how to rename a file, well the usual fx keys aren't doing it so the common process was to go to the toolbar context menu where hotkey is indicated next to the action's text. Rename for so…

As someone who only encountered windows after a decade of using mac and started using windows (not by their own choice) there are hundreds of little annoying, broken or inconsistent OS things I find.

Now I've used windows for a decade, and I still overall dislike it. But that doesn't mean these things are done "wrong" they are just done differently and not how I'd expect.

Windows doesn't place the light switches where I'm accustomed to. For example hy are there so many menus bars on each window. It's simpler to always know where the menu is at the top and it creates less screen clutter. Why does windows quit a program when close the document. If I wanted to quit it, I would have quit it. I just wanted a new document. These are just a few of the things that aren't bad but just aren't the philosophy I'd come to expect. Control-alt-delete to log in? Why?! I can't hit that one handed easily! Good thing I have two hands. And yeah bash or shell is kinda mess, but powershell is a verbose and has bureaucratic feel. It's just not my cup of tea but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#583

Post by icedistilled »

allenu wrote: post #139
lucideer wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a common view held by experienced computer users, because they don't consider which parts of their own usage patterns are a component of their advanced knowledge, and which are inherent to all users. For example: an experienced user is more likely to notice that closing a window in macOS backgrounds the app, and more likely to figure out how to fully exit the app process completely (either via Cmd+Q o…

I think you mean “experienced Windows user using macOS”. What you describe are consistent design choices on the Mac. If you flipped things around and only knew Macs and went to Windows, you might be surprised that closing a window there exits an app! There’s no reason one behavior is more correct than the other.

Reading all the comments as someone who grew up on macs and only encountered windows much later on, all the comments here are quite amusing because it's rather clear that 95% of people commenting are windows users first who encountered mac later and wonder why it's not windows. To be fair, mac used to be pretty fringe so it's expected most people would build their mental models around windows traditions by the time they started using mac.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#584

Post by Ayesh »

klodolph wrote: post #103
rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

First, not going to claim that macOS is "intuitive", because my in my experience, "intuitive" usually means very different things to different people. As a long-time Mac, Windows, and Linux user... I'll say that there are plenty of random broken things on the Mac, but there are also a few nice things that work very consistently on the Mac, but you'd never think to try them because you're used to them not working on L…

> 1. You could go to the app and hit save, bringing up the save dialog, and then drag the folder (perhaps from the icon in the title bar) into the save dialog. This moves the save dialog to point to that folder.

I don't think drag and drop is the most intuitive, but it's way worse with Windows. I think there are at least four iterations of those Open/Save windows (dating to Windows 95).

A tool called Direct Folders [1] adds a recent menu that shows all open folders and revenge, making those windows slightly more usable

1: https://www.codesector.com/directfolders

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#585

Post by rewgs »

tomtheelder wrote: post #320
samatman wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it that when I click Finder, nothing actually opens? This would be an example of the 10% of the UI which isn't identical. One of the fundamental differences between macOS and Windows is the menu bar. There's only one at a time, and it belongs to the program which has the focus. A corollary of this is that you don't need a window to have a program. It's not just Finder, most macOS programs are perfectly happy…

There's nothing at all wrong with the behavior, and it's perfectly logical once you understand what is going on, but it's certainly not intuitive. It's a bit of an odd mental model that's (as far as I can tell) specific to OSX. I find OSX to be generally pretty logical and easy to understand, but certainly no more _intuitive_ than something like Windows. Another way of saying this: if I took someone who didn't know h…

> There's nothing at all wrong with the behavior, and it's perfectly logical once you understand what is going on, but it's certainly not intuitive.

I find the "app-less desktop" of Windows and all the Linux DE's I've tried (i.e. the big ones) far more weird and infuriating. It's easy to lose context of what app is focused, since a slight dimming of buttons isn't quite as obvious as I'd like. Reading the word of the app in the menu bar, even if it's just through my peripheral vision, makes the focus behavior far more obvious.

And an "app-less desktop" more or less necessitates that you now dedicate an entire meta/super/Windows/whatever key to the window manager, which is just such a waste of keyboard real estate, as well as a driver for key command inconsistency. In macOS, Cmd+N will (nearly) always make a new window for the app that you're in; Cmd+W will close it; Cmd+Q will quit it. In Windows, Cmd+N works for everything, but to make my first file explorer window, I have to hit Windows+E. And to quit an app, it's...Alt+F4, for some reason?

The trickle-down effects of this design are endless -- I've just laid out the basics of the basics here.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#586

Post by rewgs »

karaterobot wrote: post #236
geraltofrivia wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amongst other gripes people have mentioned (and I agree with), here's another: cut. There does not seem to be a way to cut and paste a file/folder. The best I could figure out is to drag the icons, hold down the finger, and move the cursor to the desired folder on the sidebar (or another window) and release the finger. This is either extremely difficult to pull of, or I am less dexterous than I think I am. Why not ha…

This was one of my big gripes about MacOS when I had to use it for work. Evidently what you need to do is copy the file, then hold down OPT (along with CMD-V) when you paste it. You'll hear a sound effect that tells you it worked. If you right click to open the context menu, and press OPT, you'll even see the "paste item" option turn into "move item". It's 100% the wrong way to do it. Maddeningly wrong. In a world wh…

I've actually come to prefer this.

Pressing Cmd+C means I've "grabbed the file." Now I can decide what I want to do with it. I might want to just move it (cut/paste = opt+cmd+v), or I might want to copy it (copy/paste = cmd+v). But the fact is, I can change my mind mid-action.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#587

Post by tsimionescu »

robertoandred wrote: post #538
tsimionescu wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A button? Even Unix considers that accessing the parent dir is a fundamental operation that deserves a dedicated file in the API (..) .

File in the API?

Well, .. is not exactly a file, but it's not exactly an API either, right?

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#588

Post by cameldrv »

FabHK wrote: post #136
TulliusCicero wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, by default Finder seems to hide directory structure from you. This seems to be Apple thinking it'll confuse people if they can see 'up' directories, but I think just as often it confuses people like me who are trying and failing to go up. I use all three major desktop OSes regularly now, and overall Windows just feels like the most user-friendly and straightforward, though of course it too has issues (e.g. vari…

> trying and failing to go up Cmd-click on the folder in the Finder window title, and go up as far as you want?

And how is someone supposed to figure this out? It doesn't say this anywhere in the interface, and there is no manual.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#589

Post by rewgs »

asattarmd wrote: post #49
rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

The worst: pressing Enter to rename a file in finder. Command + Down arrow to open it. WTF!

I don't know anyone that uses Cmd+Down. Cmd+O tends to be the popular choice.

Because you're always in an app in macOS, Cmd+O is the more consistent choice: every app you're in will use Cmd+O for "open." In Finder, what you're opening is apps or files, so it works.

Return for rename makes sense in a more subtle way.

Besides opening a file, there are two "main" actions you'll use in Finder: renaming files, and quick-playing files. In a dialogue box, you'll either use Return or Spacebar (the former for triggering the highlighted button, the latter for another button you highlight with the Tab key).

Consider again the consistency-across-apps argument. "Rename" isn't a super common command in all kinds of apps (a DAW will allow you to rename tracks, but that idea doesn't really apply to a text editor or IDE), so using Cmd+R in Finder for "rename" isn't necessarily great for consistency, considering that apps in general will almost surely bind something to Cmd+R ("run" or something like that).

Due to the aforementioned dialogue box pattern, Spacebar or Return are the obvious choices for rename, simply by virtue of being used so much.

Spacebar technically makes more sense because quick-play is adjacent to opening a file, but the ergonomics of "Spacebar = play" across so much media makes it the obvious choice for that. So, Return it is.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#590

Post by bayindirh »

smsm42 wrote: post #574
bayindirh wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no way to create an empty file This is one of the features I never miss and don't use on any other DE (like KDE). I just open the app, create the file and save. Maybe it's just habit, but I personally doesn't find it as a needed feature. > There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) Just drag it where you want while pressing CMD? I know it's not cut but it prevents a lot of errors I think.…

> Just drag it where you want while pressing CMD? I know it's not cut but it prevents a lot of errors I think. Try making this trick work when your destination is three levels deep into a different hierarchy. Oh yes, you should have thought about it beforehand and opened two windows and pre-arranged them in a way so you can drag from one to another, because it's so intuitive! And yes, the metaphor of "take from one p…

> Try making this trick work when your destination is three levels deep into a different hierarchy. Oh yes, you should have thought about it beforehand and opened two windows and pre-arranged them in a way so you can drag from one to another, because it's so intuitive!

I regularly do this to be honest. I drag the file to my home or Dropbox folder and dive from there. I also regularly drag and drop files from finder to any other application, not just three folders, but three desktops away. It might not be OK or comfortable for you (which I understand), but writing with laser-cut assumptions and prejudice doesn't help.

> I just checked, it's always greyed out on my finder. Who knows why, it's probably intuitive.

If you're in list view, you can always click column headers, just like a particular Redmond OS allows to do. Also there's a sort by menu, which is operational in all views as I just checked. I think again a particular Redmond OS also calls this strange and magical ordering process the same.

macOS works differently, and it goes against some conventions on other OSes, I know. However, I don't get agitated by this, because how it's evolved and it's consistent in its own world. I actually like how it doesn't imitate anything else. It's same for Linux. Again backwards in some parts, but consistent in its universe of things.

The funny thing is, I booted my Windows disk this weekend for steam stuff and for keeping the OS up to date, and a lot of things felt backwards. However, this is again consistent in Windows universe and it's OK.

Again, I want to reiterate that, there's no one-and-only-one correct way to do things. We need to embrace this differences. This is what moves UI/UX research forward. I personally don't whine. Just adapt and love how quirky a UI is. If it's that broken, I patch it, or just submit bug reports.

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