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How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

jeremyaboyd.com

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Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#531

Post by jcelerier »

samatman wrote: post #328
tomtheelder wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing at all wrong with the behavior, and it's perfectly logical once you understand what is going on, but it's certainly not intuitive. It's a bit of an odd mental model that's (as far as I can tell) specific to OSX. I find OSX to be generally pretty logical and easy to understand, but certainly no more _intuitive_ than something like Windows. Another way of saying this: if I took someone who didn't know h…

I don't think desktop GUIs can or should be 'intuitive'. They should be consistent, discoverable, and customizable. I give macOS full marks for consistency, and a passing grade for customizable, but it's hardly discoverable! I read these kinds of HN posts because of all the little tips and tricks I find. Operating systems used to come with a thick manual, and you could buy an even thicker "missing manual" book at the…

> I don't think desktop GUIs can or should be 'intuitive'.

why ?

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#532

Post by jcelerier »

hagg3n wrote: post #467
samatman wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See I firmly disagree with this. If I have some document editor open, and I close all the documents, what should happen? Should it quit? Well if I wanted to quit, I would have done so. Should it display some blank pane? Why? To let me know it's still running? The menu bar does that! I say it should close that last window, and then I can open up another one and keep working. In other words, I want to have a "menubar-o…

Honest question: Should whether an application is running or not be a concern to you? Why would you ever want to actually quit an application? Granted, I understand that in reality the app might be misbehaving, hogging resources and whatnot and that the underlying OS isn't perfect and we should absolutely have control over how our hardware is utilized, but from a UX PoV I think the notion of a running process isn't o…

> Should whether an application is running or not be a concern to you? Why would you ever want to actually quit an application?

same reason why I want the parts of my house that I rarely go to to be tidy ?

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#533

Post by rubyist5eva »

yesenadam wrote: post #230
hnlmorg wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On literally every other operating system. I've used dozens of platforms, some of them pretty obscure, some of them hobbyist, some of them were purpose built for hardware that stopped being manufactured 20, 30 or more years ago, and all of them supported return as a trigger in menus, be it graphical or text based. Finder really is the odd ball with regards to binding it to rename.

Well, it makes total sense in one way - ENTER toggles name editing. After you change a file name, you press ENTER to 'save' the new name and finish editing. That seems logical, I think. So why not have the same key to start editing the name too? In the way PLAY/STOP are usually the same button etc.

Also, you use cod+down to open a file. Just like you use cmd+down to enter a directory. You’re going “down” into the directory (to view its content), and if you go “down” into the file it should be opened with its default application (to view its content). Alternatively, cmd+down “activates” the directory so you want the same shortcut to “activate” files.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#534

Post by vladvasiliu »

alleyshack wrote: post #493
vladvasiliu wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that Finder is somewhat weird in regard to hierarchies, but it all makes sense if you get to know it: basically, you can move around with CMD+Arrow. Up goes up a directory, down goes down a directory (or opens the file). Left / Right go forward / back in history, like a browser. I'm not sure Windows is such a great example in the conversation about file systems, what with its "collections" and abstract hierar…

> basically, you can move around with CMD+Arrow. Up goes up a directory, down goes down a directory (or opens the file). Left / Right go forward / back in history, like a browser. This is really helpful to know - it's one of my biggest bugaboos about using Finder & navigating the Mac GUI. On the other hand, I suspect this kind of obscure key-based shortcut is a big part of why Macs don't feel intuitive to a lot of us…

Yeah, I remember being frustrated about the discoverability when I started using Mac OS.

Shortcuts mostly appear in the menus, but I remember one in particular being elusive: cmd + down. I've found it out by asking a friend.

I think there is supposed to be a method to the madness, though it's maybe less and less clear nowadays, especially with applications that don't implement them correctly (such as MS Office, electron apps, etc) and people being very used to Windows' conventions.

For example, the modifier keys' names are usually an indication of what you can achieve with them.

CMD (the "flower-like" key, directly next to the space bar) is usually the one used to produce... commands. As in Copy, Save, etc.

Then you have your ALTernative / Option, which usually modifies some other key's usual behaviour. You can obtain dead keys with it. ALT+e / e = é. etc. It also works in menus to obtain alternative actions. You can click a menu, press alt, and see the entries change.

And CTRL deals with control characters. ctrl-c in the terminal, line editing (ctrl-a in any text field goes to the beginning of the line, etc). It's not clear to me why right click is obtained with control and not alt, though...

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#535

Post by vladvasiliu »

xiphias2 wrote: post #513
sbtrct wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The return key is functionally the same as F2 in Windows.

Thanks, in Windows that starts the program, but I guess there's another key for that...I'll have to experiment more. I love my M1 Macbook Pro so much that I want to get used to the OS.

It's CMD+Down arrow.

One thing that's killer for me in MacOS vs Windows, regarding consistency, is text fields. They always behave the same (except, of course, for weird apps, say ms office). CMD+Backspace will delete a whole word even in password fields or system settings, etc. This is always hit or miss in Windows. I know it doesn't work for passwords. In Windows explorer it works... sometimes. It works in the address bar, but not in the preferences or when renaming a file.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#536

Post by qubitcoder »

xiphias2 wrote: post #513
sbtrct wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The return key is functionally the same as F2 in Windows.

Thanks, in Windows that starts the program, but I guess there's another key for that...I'll have to experiment more. I love my M1 Macbook Pro so much that I want to get used to the OS.

You can use Cmd+o to open a program (and the "return" key to rename it).

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#537

Post by cuddlybacon »

bayindirh wrote: post #262
turkeywelder wrote: post #203

Recent M1 user here - I had a PowerPC mac back in the Leopard/Tiger days. I thought OSx would have come on leaps and bounds since then. It's....more or less unchanged. As well as this crazy installer thing, there's quite a bit about Macs that just seems off.. My list of "things that don't seem right" as a long term Windows/ChromeOS user - Window snapping isn't built in outside of fullscreen mode (seriously?!) - Sleep…

> Window snapping isn't built in outside of fullscreen mode (seriously?!) You can just install Magnet. It's a little unobtrusive app which can do neat things with windows. > Sleeping the mac does not sleep the mac, it wakes up at all sorts of times Power Nap is useful. When I open my Mac in the morning everything is updated from mail to apps. It doesn't turn on fans on older Macs for smaller tasks too. You can turn i…

>> TouchID for login works....but not often enough - it constantly pesters me for a password

> Unless Touch-ID is disabled for something (long sleep, location change, reboot, etc.) It never failed to recognize my finger.

Touch-ID will periodically demand the password. I've always guessed this is done so you don't end up forgetting it. It also demands the password on reboot.

I wonder if the person you are replying to is rebooting a lot.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#538

Post by robertoandred »

tsimionescu wrote: post #422
robertoandred wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cmd-X would be inconsistent with every other move/copy action on the Mac. Option is the modifier that switches between them. And what is the "correct" way to go up a folder? What would be easier or more discoverable than Go -> Enclosing Folder?

A button? Even Unix considers that accessing the parent dir is a fundamental operation that deserves a dedicated file in the API (..) .

File in the API?

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#539

Post by Rebelgecko »

mjburgess wrote: post #100
jermaustin1 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually gave up on having my windows maximized, or side by side, they are now just all overlapping, and its whatever. I try to keep a portion of every window visible on the screen so I can quickly click between them, it looks like a disorganized mess, but it is MY disorganized mess.

err... try "Spectacle"

Rectangle is another great tool in the same vein (and it's still actively being developed)

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#540

Post by robertoandred »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #417

I've been using MacBooks for 8 hours a decade, for over half a decade now, and I still can't figure finder out. Why does the delete key not delete files? How do I create a new file? I can't even figure out how to navigate down a directory. I suppose it's not an issue with Finder specifically, but the fact that macOS defaults to saving your screenshots to Desktop is just terrible. At one point I had hundreds of screen…

Cmd-Delete deletes files. You create a file in an app. Not sure what you mean about navigating down a directory.
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