How Intuitive Are Macs Really? • Hacker News Board

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#411

Post by bayindirh » Mon, May 24, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #385

bayindirh wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no way to create an empty file This is one of the features I never miss and don't use on any other DE (like KDE). I just open the app, create the file and save. Maybe it's just habit, but I personally doesn't find it as a needed feature. > There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) Just drag it where you want while pressing CMD? I know it's not cut but it prevents a lot of errors I think.…

> Just drag it where you want while pressing CMD? I know it's not cut but it prevents a lot of errors I think. That requires you to have both places visible on the screen at the same time. It's also a mouse+keyboard interaction, the least usbale kind of interaction.

> That requires you to have both places visible on the screen at the same time.

You can drag a file across tabs, folders, dive in folders in finder, drag it across desktops and more.

> It's also a mouse+keyboard interaction, the least usbale kind of interaction.

I don't know you, but my left hand is on the keyboard all the time, and my thumb is on the command almost 99% percent of the time. It's just an instinct-like action for me.

Also, you can use cmd+opt+v it seems. TIL that.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#412

Post by jbverschoor » Mon, May 24, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

robinj6 wrote: post #342

I’ve used a PC heavily for 15 years and 6 months ago switched cold turkey to a Mac. There is only one thing I found Windows to handle better and that is file system navigation (via UI). I just cannot get used to finder, from the default lack of an address bar, to individual windows not showing up on your tab switcher, to the lack of an equivalent run dialogue, etc. It just isn’t as intuitive to me and dealing with th…

cmd-~ for window switching in an app

you can modify some settings and "defaults write" to show full paths and extensions.

cmd-shift-g to go to any folder (with tab completion and ~)

cmd-up -> up a folder cmd-down -> open/go in

cmd-shift-h -> home dir cmd-shift-a -> apps dir cmd-shift-u -> utils dir

cmd-k -> connect to server

Don't forget the proxy icon drag/drop. It works with file dialogs, but since big sur, press shift to show the icon :-(

cmd-1234 to toggle views

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#413

Post by m463 » Mon, May 24, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #348

IMHO installing apps is definitely one of the top two non-intuitive things about Macs. Not to mention it's not even consistent -- sometimes you drag to Applications, sometimes you double-click a .pkg file, sometimes you go to the App Store. The other thing, of course, being an application open without any windows but a menubar present. Start QuickTime and... nothing happens except for the menubar changing, which is i…

The .dmg drag thing has benefits - many times you can run an app from within the .dmg

You can also drag into locations that are not /Applications

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#414

Post by eatbitseveryday » Mon, May 24, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

> Why is it that when I click Finder, nothing actually opens?

Perhaps this was changed now? Big Sur does open a new window for me.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#415

Post by tsimionescu » Mon, May 24, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

moogleii wrote: post #373

throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think you've ever actually used a Mac. For the last 2 years I've used a Mac professionally and personally. I switched from Windows because lots of things are better. Finder is not one of them. And your answers should give you a hint why it sucks. An empty file is a file that is empty, with the name and extension I chose on the moment I need it. >And yes you can cut. Cmd-C, Cmd-Opt-V. With the wrong keyboard…

Generally speaking, macOS uses option or shift to modify existing commands. Hence cmd-c / cmd-(opt)-v. The paradigm is Copy -> Move or Duplicate. In Windows, it's Copy or Cut -> Paste. I don't mind this change from Windows. Actually, I slightly prefer the Mac version, because I can change my mind on what operation I want to do. Windows front loads the choice, and I have to do it again if I decide I don't want to copy…

> In Windows, it's Copy or Cut -> Paste. I don't mind this change from Windows. Actually, I slightly prefer the Mac version, because I can change my mind on what operation I want to do. Windows front loads the choice, and I have to do it again if I decide I don't want to copy or cut anymore.

That's not just Windows, it is the way the copy/paste model works absolutely everywhere outside Mac's Finder. And there is a clear reason why it makes sense, and why the Finder way is just bad UX: the decision about what happens in location X should always be done when you are in location X.

So, if you navigate into a folder and select a file that you want somewhere else, you are currently in the best position to decide whether you want the file to stay here as well (copy) or no (cut). Then, you can go somewhere else and just add the file in that location (paste). Furthermore, on Windows you can paste the file to several places, with predictable semantics: the file will be copied to each of those places (though performance of this operation may be suprising).

I can't even begin to imagine on Mac if you copy a file the Cmd+opt+v it to multiple places. Does it move it around, deleting it from the previous place where you pressed cmd-opt-v???

Edit: I was entirely wrong about the part about copying to multiple places, which does undermine my point considerably.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#416

Post by samatman » Mon, May 24, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

shawnz wrote: post #341

samatman wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See I firmly disagree with this. If I have some document editor open, and I close all the documents, what should happen? Should it quit? Well if I wanted to quit, I would have done so. Should it display some blank pane? Why? To let me know it's still running? The menu bar does that! I say it should close that last window, and then I can open up another one and keep working. In other words, I want to have a "menubar-o…

When you are done with all the windows in your editor, do you open a new window by choosing File > New? You don't open a new window by clicking the dock icon? If you close all the tabs in a browser window, should it close the window or display a new tab page? Or just do nothing but show an empty tab bar and a blank window pane? That seems like the worst possible solution, because it always requires more clicks to do…

I hit Cmd-O or Cmd-N, depending on what I'm doing. Personally I barely use the dock for anything, Cmd-Space for Spotlight is faster, and I use Cmd-Tab to navigate between open programs.

If I close all the tabs in a browser window, the window should disappear, yes. If I close all the windows, the browser should stay open, so I can start another window if I want to.

That's the whole point of this user affordance, there's a difference between closing the last window and closing the browser! If I want to close a whole window at once, that's Shift-Cmd-W, Cmd-W closes just one tab, and this works for any tabbed window on any native Mac app.

No amount of Cmd-W will quit the application, and Cmd-Q will always quit the application, maybe prompting and maybe not. They're unrelated commands, especially since most applications will save your windows and that's most often what I want to have happen.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#417

Post by toomanybeersies » Mon, May 24, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

I've been using MacBooks for 8 hours a decade, for over half a decade now, and I still can't figure finder out. Why does the delete key not delete files? How do I create a new file? I can't even figure out how to navigate down a directory.

I suppose it's not an issue with Finder specifically, but the fact that macOS defaults to saving your screenshots to Desktop is just terrible. At one point I had hundreds of screenshots on my "Desktop" before I got around to changing the screenshot folder to `~/screenshots`.

I never actually bothered to learn how to use the macOS UI, I went straight from being a Windows user to using zsh for anything that wasn't typing code (never quite got into using vim or emacs as a daily driver). I've become one of those guys who complains when an application doesn't have a CLI. I don't even own a mouse.

The only great thing about the macOS UI is Spotlight, and I use it solely for launching applications, and for adding numbers together.

In fairness, I don't think macOS is any better or worse than Windows (or Gnome, KDE, et al). I just think that if you're sitting in front of a computer for 8 hours a day, a mouse is a waste of time.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#418

Post by jbverschoor » Mon, May 24, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

FabHK wrote: post #172

drewg123 wrote: post #96

I just helped a friend who is a lifetime windows user set up her new MBP M1. I was reminded how un-intuitive things are and how useful UI elements are hidden in the name of "simplicity". A lot of it for her is centered around the finder and accessing files in general. The two biggest issues she had was: 1) finder not easily acting as an image viewer. Eg, she had an SD card from her camera, and wanted to quickly scan…

1) hit space for Quick Look, then scroll through? Or use column view. 2) home folder is listed on the Sidebar by default (its name is the user short name, ie its actual name). If that is not there for some reason, go to Finder -> Preferences -> Sidebar.

You can simply add it. And otherwise, the shortcut is cmd-shit-H for Home. It's all listed in the "Go" menu.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#419

Post by dsego » Mon, May 24, 2021, 5:28 PM UTC

rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

What kind of file manager doesn't have tabs? Windows explorer.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#420

Post by S_A_P » Mon, May 24, 2021, 5:28 PM UTC

throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #205

rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

The Finder is atrocious. It's the worst default macOS app and probably the worst program period I've ever used. It's been so dumbed down that it's basically unusable for anyone slightly experienced. - There's no way to create an empty file - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned - ~~Tags are useless and just take up space…

- There's no way to create an empty file Fair - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) If the intent is to paste/move then hold option cmd v(or in the context menu hold option) if you just want to cut it to remove it then that is a delete. Not necessarily better or worse imo just different

- There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned Need more info here, but I dont notice a problem with sorting by name type modified or any other column header just like windows explorer?