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How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

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Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#341

Post by shawnz »

samatman wrote: post #333
shawnz wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, so it's not a problem with Finder but actually the window manager. Why would you ever want to have a "menubar-only" app? It would be better if the design didn't create the possibility of that happening at all.

See I firmly disagree with this. If I have some document editor open, and I close all the documents, what should happen? Should it quit? Well if I wanted to quit, I would have done so. Should it display some blank pane? Why? To let me know it's still running? The menu bar does that! I say it should close that last window, and then I can open up another one and keep working. In other words, I want to have a "menubar-o…

When you are done with all the windows in your editor, do you open a new window by choosing File > New? You don't open a new window by clicking the dock icon?

If you close all the tabs in a browser window, should it close the window or display a new tab page? Or just do nothing but show an empty tab bar and a blank window pane? That seems like the worst possible solution, because it always requires more clicks to do whatever you were intending to do. At least closing the window or opening a new tab will save you some clicks 50% of the time.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#342

Post by robinj6 »

I’ve used a PC heavily for 15 years and 6 months ago switched cold turkey to a Mac. There is only one thing I found Windows to handle better and that is file system navigation (via UI). I just cannot get used to finder, from the default lack of an address bar, to individual windows not showing up on your tab switcher, to the lack of an equivalent run dialogue, etc. It just isn’t as intuitive to me and dealing with the file system is unpleasant.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#343

Post by throwaddzuzxd »

rsynnott wrote: post #336
throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think you've ever actually used a Mac. For the last 2 years I've used a Mac professionally and personally. I switched from Windows because lots of things are better. Finder is not one of them. And your answers should give you a hint why it sucks. An empty file is a file that is empty, with the name and extension I chose on the moment I need it. >And yes you can cut. Cmd-C, Cmd-Opt-V. With the wrong keyboard…

> With the wrong keyboard shortcut, the correct one universally being Cmd-X. I think no matter what you do here, you have a problem. When you press ctrl-x on a file in Windows explorer; you're not really cutting it; nothing happens til you paste! (Unlike using cut anywhere else). Both Windows and MacOS end up with a bit of a strained metaphor here; I don't think it's at all obvious which way is _correct_.

>I don't think it's at all obvious which way is _correct_.

From a UX perspective the answer is pretty clear. Copy/Cut/Paste is the winning paradigm, which empirically makes it the correct way.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#344

Post by aoeusnth1 »

dsego wrote: post #324
throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Finder is atrocious. It's the worst default macOS app and probably the worst program period I've ever used. It's been so dumbed down that it's basically unusable for anyone slightly experienced. - There's no way to create an empty file - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned - ~~Tags are useless and just take up space…

> There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) You don't need cut for files, you either want to duplicate the file or move it. For moving you copy it (cmd-c) and then move with cmd-opt-v. Cut doesn't really make sense for files. With text you cut out the text into a clipboard. Where does the file go when you cut it? Nowhere. There is no place where you can see that you had already cut a file but it's…

It’s another UX paradigm I have to remember (and usually don’t) instead of using the standard one which is second nature to me.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#345

Post by robertoandred »

throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #315
robertoandred wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What on earth is an "empty" file? And yes you can cut. Cmd-C, Cmd-Opt-V. And yes, you can sort and align. Just go to the View menu. And yes, there's a way to go the parent folder. SEVERAL: - Go -> Enclosing Folder - Cmd-Up - Right click on the window title and choose any enclosing folder from the tree - Show the Path Bar and double click any enclosing folder from the tree I don't think you've ever actually used a Mac…

> I don't think you've ever actually used a Mac. For the last 2 years I've used a Mac professionally and personally. I switched from Windows because lots of things are better. Finder is not one of them. And your answers should give you a hint why it sucks. An empty file is a file that is empty, with the name and extension I chose on the moment I need it. >And yes you can cut. Cmd-C, Cmd-Opt-V. With the wrong keyboard…

Cmd-X would be inconsistent with every other move/copy action on the Mac. Option is the modifier that switches between them.

And what is the "correct" way to go up a folder? What would be easier or more discoverable than Go -> Enclosing Folder?

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#346

Post by mthoms »

throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #216
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to customise MacOS to show full file paths and hidden files. Someone at Apple decided that users couldn't be trusted with that super-secret information, but anyone who reads HN is going to find that frustrating. I go back to Windows occasionally and I still hate every single thing about it. The tiles, the file system, the telemetry, the intrusive updates that guarantee I'll have to wait for an undefined time…

> the intrusive updates that guarantee I'll have to wait for an undefined time before I can get some work done This is a common criticism but it's entirely false. Windows offers a lot more way to delay or refuse updates than macOS. When macOS wants to update, the best you can do is "Ask again tomorrow". And pray you see the popup before it reboots in 60 seconds.

I'm confused. If I click "ask again tomorrow", it asks again tomorrow.

But, I still haven't figured out how to delay Windows updates (granted I haven't looked into it seriously yet since I only use it for casual gaming).

The point is, the default UI allows users to delay they update on MacOS easily, while Windows does not.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#347

Post by thunderbong »

Isthatablackgsd wrote: post #206
speeder wrote: post #161

I concluded Mac interface designers are out of touch with reality when I found out that to "eject" pendrives you had to drag them to the trash bin. I mean, now they do show a convenient "eject" symbol next to the name of the remove-able drive on the Finder, but the "drag to trash" thing still work, and it always surprises people, they always assume it means you want to delete all files in a disk, not that you want to…

Or you could use ⌘+E to eject it.

That's not really the correct answer from the user experience perspective, is it?

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#348

Post by crazygringo »

IMHO installing apps is definitely one of the top two non-intuitive things about Macs.

Not to mention it's not even consistent -- sometimes you drag to Applications, sometimes you double-click a .pkg file, sometimes you go to the App Store.

The other thing, of course, being an application open without any windows but a menubar present. Start QuickTime and... nothing happens except for the menubar changing, which is incredibly easy not to notice at all. Even worse, some apps automatically close when closing the last window (e.g. System Preferences) while others don't (most other apps).

The installation one should be easy to Apple to fix -- when you double-click a .dmg, auto-detect if it contains an .app or .pkg, and just automagically expand, mount, copy or run, unmount, delete expanded file and leave just the original .dmg behind (perhaps asking if you want to delete that too). (Also, macOS needs a centralized place for uninstalling apps as well, particularly .pkg ones.)

The menubar one is trickier. But it doesn't seem unreasonable to either expect an application to quit when closing its main window (e.g. Activity Monitor should follow System Preferences in this), or else for document-centric apps, to open a standardized "start" window with options for types of new documents, a list of recent documents, etc. when all document windows are closed (e.g. what TextEdit and QuickTime could do).

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#349

Post by toomanybeersies »

philliphaydon wrote: post #232
Popegaf wrote: post #189

They aren't. The first time using it about 10 years ago was confusing: Single button mouse --> no instructions, can't find out how to right click Double click on window --> fullscreen; uh... move mouse around edges to find how to get back to other windows Drag window to side of the screen to split window --> nothing; search the application menu --> nothing; Cmd+Right? --> nothing; oook, I have to actually resize ever…

> Single button mouse --> no instructions, can't find out how to right click I can’t stand OSX, but I’m pretty proficient. I think the right click is a symptom of you being so used to Windows or linux. The average user probably never needs to right click. I bought my mum a MacBook Air and she’s never needed to right click in the 4-5 years of owning it. I think it’s hidden for good reason. She also never asks if she s…

I think GP was referring to the Macintosh of old, where the mice only had a single button, and right click literally didn't exist. You needed to ctrl+click to "right click".

You do make a good point though. From a zero-knowledge perspective, using a mouse with left-click for primary interactions and right-click for secondary interactions isn't the most intuitive concept.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#350

Post by robertoandred »

rchaud wrote: post #325
robertoandred wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't you close Windows Explorer?

You can. explorer.exe may still be running as a process, but visually its presence can be eliminated from the GUI.

Which sounds just like the Finder?
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