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How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

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Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#331

Post by bayindirh »

throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #315
robertoandred wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What on earth is an "empty" file? And yes you can cut. Cmd-C, Cmd-Opt-V. And yes, you can sort and align. Just go to the View menu. And yes, there's a way to go the parent folder. SEVERAL: - Go -> Enclosing Folder - Cmd-Up - Right click on the window title and choose any enclosing folder from the tree - Show the Path Bar and double click any enclosing folder from the tree I don't think you've ever actually used a Mac…

> I don't think you've ever actually used a Mac. For the last 2 years I've used a Mac professionally and personally. I switched from Windows because lots of things are better. Finder is not one of them. And your answers should give you a hint why it sucks. An empty file is a file that is empty, with the name and extension I chose on the moment I need it. >And yes you can cut. Cmd-C, Cmd-Opt-V. With the wrong keyboard…

> With the wrong keyboard shortcut, the correct one universally being Cmd-X.

I think there's no right or wrongs in keyboard shortcuts, but there are traditions. Both Windows and macOS has their distinct histories and traditions with inspirations from each other. I think it's equally wrong to point a finger to a Windows machine and shout "Why you don't have a command key, you inferior OS-Wannabe?"

Some machines work different from each other. Sun and other Unixen had super, hyper and meta layers on their keyboards with hundreds or more shortcuts. They weren't wrong either, just different, and IMHO cool.

> Several ways, none being the correct one...

Again, if we're going to throw stones, I can name a lot of shortcomings in Windows from file names to other small/backward stuff, but it'd be equally wrong. They are just different systems and have different choices.

> I know Apple likes hard to discover shortcuts but this is ridiculous.

Just open the help menu of an app and write to command you want to find. It'll show it on the menu. Pressing enter will directly run that action.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#332

Post by throwaddzuzxd »

dsego wrote: post #324
throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Finder is atrocious. It's the worst default macOS app and probably the worst program period I've ever used. It's been so dumbed down that it's basically unusable for anyone slightly experienced. - There's no way to create an empty file - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned - ~~Tags are useless and just take up space…

> There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) You don't need cut for files, you either want to duplicate the file or move it. For moving you copy it (cmd-c) and then move with cmd-opt-v. Cut doesn't really make sense for files. With text you cut out the text into a clipboard. Where does the file go when you cut it? Nowhere. There is no place where you can see that you had already cut a file but it's…

How does one discover Cmd-Opt-V?

Even with a right click after copying a file, there's no "Move" option. Your explanation makes sense but doesn't really seem supported with Finder's UX since the "Move" terminology doesn't exist anywhere

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#333

Post by samatman »

shawnz wrote: post #303
samatman wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it that when I click Finder, nothing actually opens? This would be an example of the 10% of the UI which isn't identical. One of the fundamental differences between macOS and Windows is the menu bar. There's only one at a time, and it belongs to the program which has the focus. A corollary of this is that you don't need a window to have a program. It's not just Finder, most macOS programs are perfectly happy…

Right, so it's not a problem with Finder but actually the window manager. Why would you ever want to have a "menubar-only" app? It would be better if the design didn't create the possibility of that happening at all.

See I firmly disagree with this.

If I have some document editor open, and I close all the documents, what should happen?

Should it quit? Well if I wanted to quit, I would have done so.

Should it display some blank pane? Why? To let me know it's still running? The menu bar does that!

I say it should close that last window, and then I can open up another one and keep working.

In other words, I want to have a "menubar-only" app every time I'm done with all the windows I had open, and intend to open more. This happens frequently enough that I'm glad macOS works the way it does.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#334

Post by robertoandred »

yalogin wrote: post #193

If anything for a first time user Macs are less intuitive. The whole window system is very different from everything out there. The app does not die when you close the window. One other thing the author forgot to mention is, in most cases one has to eject the DMG manually and then delete it if you want to clean up your downloads folder. Else you will just have this mounted until the next reboot. I know many people th…

> The app does not die when you close the window.

Thank goodness for that. The way Windows conflates apps and windows is just a mess.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#335

Post by perryizgr8 »

TurningCanadian wrote: post #227
screye wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I for the love of me, can't understand how to use a macbook. I don't mean being productive on it. I mean: how to open something or how clicks work. It might simply be the fact that I've never used a mac as a primary device. But, clicks, navigating the explorer and settings menus seem to be a lot simpler on windows. It also seems to be almost malicious in punishing you for using something that isn't a 1st party applic…

It's not even great for programming these days. Docker on Linux or even Windows is a walk in the park compared to the horror show of slowness ( https://github.com/docker/roadmap/issues/7 ) and missing features that it is on Mac.

Docker is complicated. Try running gdb on a Mac. I gave up after a reboot and 15 minutes of searching and trying different things.

Unbelievable how devs put up with this.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#336

Post by rsynnott »

throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #315
robertoandred wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What on earth is an "empty" file? And yes you can cut. Cmd-C, Cmd-Opt-V. And yes, you can sort and align. Just go to the View menu. And yes, there's a way to go the parent folder. SEVERAL: - Go -> Enclosing Folder - Cmd-Up - Right click on the window title and choose any enclosing folder from the tree - Show the Path Bar and double click any enclosing folder from the tree I don't think you've ever actually used a Mac…

> I don't think you've ever actually used a Mac. For the last 2 years I've used a Mac professionally and personally. I switched from Windows because lots of things are better. Finder is not one of them. And your answers should give you a hint why it sucks. An empty file is a file that is empty, with the name and extension I chose on the moment I need it. >And yes you can cut. Cmd-C, Cmd-Opt-V. With the wrong keyboard…

> With the wrong keyboard shortcut, the correct one universally being Cmd-X.

I think no matter what you do here, you have a problem. When you press ctrl-x on a file in Windows explorer; you're not really cutting it; nothing happens til you paste! (Unlike using cut anywhere else).

Both Windows and MacOS end up with a bit of a strained metaphor here; I don't think it's at all obvious which way is _correct_.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#337

Post by throwaddzuzxd »

bayindirh wrote: post #331
throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think you've ever actually used a Mac. For the last 2 years I've used a Mac professionally and personally. I switched from Windows because lots of things are better. Finder is not one of them. And your answers should give you a hint why it sucks. An empty file is a file that is empty, with the name and extension I chose on the moment I need it. >And yes you can cut. Cmd-C, Cmd-Opt-V. With the wrong keyboard…

> With the wrong keyboard shortcut, the correct one universally being Cmd-X. I think there's no right or wrongs in keyboard shortcuts, but there are traditions. Both Windows and macOS has their distinct histories and traditions with inspirations from each other. I think it's equally wrong to point a finger to a Windows machine and shout "Why you don't have a command key, you inferior OS-Wannabe?" Some machines work d…

>I think it's equally wrong to point a finger to a Windows machine and shout "Why you don't have a command key"

Well actually I think the control/option/command paradigm makes more sense than ctrl/alt/super, so yeah, I'd love this being copied by Microsoft. It's harder than just supporting Cmd-X in the Finder though. Adding Cmd-X to Finder is just a net gain, it doesn't even require deprecating or breaking anything. It just brings a standard to an app that should support it.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#338

Post by Koshkin »

samatman wrote: post #328
tomtheelder wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing at all wrong with the behavior, and it's perfectly logical once you understand what is going on, but it's certainly not intuitive. It's a bit of an odd mental model that's (as far as I can tell) specific to OSX. I find OSX to be generally pretty logical and easy to understand, but certainly no more _intuitive_ than something like Windows. Another way of saying this: if I took someone who didn't know h…

I don't think desktop GUIs can or should be 'intuitive'. They should be consistent, discoverable, and customizable. I give macOS full marks for consistency, and a passing grade for customizable, but it's hardly discoverable! I read these kinds of HN posts because of all the little tips and tricks I find. Operating systems used to come with a thick manual, and you could buy an even thicker "missing manual" book at the…

> consistent, discoverable

I think that's what 'intuitive' means, practically, in this context.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#339

Post by tomtheelder »

rapsey wrote: post #89
geraneum wrote: post #84

If a certain way of doing things which I am very much used to does not apply to a different environment, it does not mean the subject is not intuitive whether it's macOS, Windows, etc. To me, intuitiveness means how easy it is to operate the system correctly without prior training. Honestly, for a non-tech savvy, macOS and Windows both have many quirks and don't let me start with Linux distros (Fedora is my daily dri…

What keeps me on macOS is keyboard shortcuts. Typing on windows or linux is so much more annoying.

What shortcuts do you have in macOS and not in Windows/Linux?

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#340

Post by kazinator »

Macs were intuitive in the 80s and 90s. Hands down the best thing in the consumer computing scene in that regard (not to mention non-consumer computing scene, which was a joke in terms of usability). Apple basically wrote the book on UX.

Now it's a has-been reputation, based on ancient history attached to the brand name, which only brand loyalists blindly believe.

It's like believing that a Toyota is good because of hearing your dad reminisce about that good old 4Runner truck or Supra he had in 1988.

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