Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#141

Post by Mountain_Skies » Wed, May 12, 2021, 4:03 AM UTC

agogdog wrote: post #123

pfp wrote: post #56

Don't negotiate. Dictate. I'm not joking either. I tried negotiating this (pre-covid), only to get a "final offer" of a measly couple of remote days etc. Being on the spectrum, I took their word at face value, found another job that does 100% remote, and put in my resignation. Surprisingly that "absolutely final" position wasn't that final anymore, and they'd've rather had me remote than not at all. Had the new job n…

>Surprisingly that "absolutely final" position wasn't that final anymore I've been in this position a couple times with pay raises... and to be honest once this happens the job is more or less dead for me anyway. To only pay me what I asked because I'm leaving absolutely obliterates my trust.

I never take counteroffers and make it clear at every job that I don't take them because in my view if they could have paid me more but didn't, they were stealing from me. If I presented a case for a raise and didn't get it, they were also lying to me about the inability to give me one. Why hang around at a company like that? If I'm valuable to the company, it's foolish try to save a few dollars because it'll just end with them spending far more recruiting a replacement.

I have no way of knowing if this has resulted in better salary increases over the years than if I had played it differently but it certainly feels better than working for people who I feel are cheating and lying to me.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#142

Post by edent » Wed, May 12, 2021, 4:18 AM UTC

Join a union.

You as an individual have very little power. You don't know the intricacies of employment law. You aren't a trained negotiator.

A Trade Union has a bunch of lawyers and negotiators who work for you.

Join a union. Convince your colleagues to join. Use collective bargaining to negotiate with your employer.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#143

Post by crossroadsguy » Wed, May 12, 2021, 4:26 AM UTC

Tell, don’t ask.

Personally I’d like to go back to office. But I do understand why many people may not want to.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#144

Post by smileysteve » Wed, May 12, 2021, 4:39 AM UTC

Permit wrote: post #102

ineptech wrote: post #61

I manage people and have some advice. Start with, "I'd like to be converted to full remote, what's the process for that?" The answer is probably "I don't know but I don't think it would fly." Insist that your manager ask up the chain for an official answer. If the answer is "nope", next say: "I'm not comfortable returning to the office for health reasons. Will I be fired?" This is two-pronged: a) it introduces privat…

> a) it introduces private healthcare decisions, a legally fraught topic they do not want to deal with. Weaponizing (perhaps too aggressive a word) private health decisions feels weird to me. The OP didn't mention any health concerns, so I'm assuming you're suggesting he just hide behind fictitious ones? Your advice is probably useful and could potentially get him what he desires, but it still feels off to me. It fee…

I think up is thinking health concerns are related to the global pandemic and why the company went remote.

But that's to ignore that

* Not all ages or people have been vaccinated

* Other disease such as flu or cold

* Commute related health

* Even ergonomics of a home office

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#145

Post by snow_mac » Wed, May 12, 2021, 4:42 AM UTC

bigwavedave wrote: post #133

snow_mac wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can if they fire you though...

> You can if they fire you though... As far as I know, that's if you're fired without cause. Who do you think the state contacts to find out why you were let go? Be careful going down that route.

> State law determines whether a fired employee can collect unemployment. Generally speaking, an employee who is fired for serious misconduct is ineligible for benefits, either entirely or for a certain period of time (often called a "disqualification period"). But the definition of misconduct varies from state to state. In many states, an employee's misconduct has to be pretty bad to render the employee ineligible for unemployment benefits. An employee who is fired for being a poor fit for the job, lacking the necessary skills for the position, or failing to perform up to expected standards will likely be able to collect unemployment. But an employee who acts intentionally or recklessly against the employer's interests will likely be ineligible for unemployment benefits. Other states take a harder line, finding that employees who are fired for violating a workplace policy or rule won't be eligible for unemployment benefits, at least for a period of time.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/unemployment-benefit...

Like anything, it depends

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#146

Post by ohazi » Wed, May 12, 2021, 4:47 AM UTC

b112 wrote: post #88

perl4ever wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Being on the spectrum I don't think that is why you made a suboptimal choice; I think that's why you incorrectly think you made a suboptimal choice. They might regret losing you, but that doesn't mean that good things would have happened if you tried to apply leverage before. The act of trying to force someone to do something, whether by (implied) threat, logic, emotional manipulation, or whatever, can mortally woun…

I think it's a shame, that negotiations have to end up so... damaging. There's no reason for it, but ego, and emotionalism on both sides. Saying: "I'm at a point where remote matters to me quite a bit, and I won't sacrifice pay for it. If you can't do it, I'll start applying with those who will, but I thought I owed you the honest truth." It doesn't need to be emotionally driven. Just honest truth. And I get that, as…

> Me? I respect the truth. I can work with it. I want to hear it.

> Many don't.

We're not negotiating with you, we're negotiating with an average boss picked out of the "many" pile.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#147

Post by ineptech » Wed, May 12, 2021, 5:04 AM UTC

gnicholas wrote: post #119

ineptech wrote: post #61

I manage people and have some advice. Start with, "I'd like to be converted to full remote, what's the process for that?" The answer is probably "I don't know but I don't think it would fly." Insist that your manager ask up the chain for an official answer. If the answer is "nope", next say: "I'm not comfortable returning to the office for health reasons. Will I be fired?" This is two-pronged: a) it introduces privat…

> a) it introduces private healthcare decisions, a legally fraught topic they do not want to deal with. Is it legal to fire someone for refusing to return to the office despite health concerns? Probably, but no one knows for sure and your employer does not want to be the test case. (If they ask, "what health concerns?" remind them that's private. Don't invent a fictitious medically-fragile aunt.) I used to be a lawye…

> It seems like you've thought about this quite a bit — what would the reasoning be?

I have not, no, this is just guesswork, but the reasoning is how much of an unknown quantity the covid risk still is. If Bob's doctor says it's not safe for Bob to return to the office because Bob's wife had a pulmonary embolism two years ago, who's to say the doctor is wrong? If Bob's psychologist says he has PTSD and the only way he can work safely is from his couch, how can you argue that allowing him to wfh isn't a "reasonable accommodation", after he's done it for a year and gotten a good annual review?

But again, I'm talking out my butt on this. My point was not that medical necessity is a convincing case, just that conjuring up the specter of medical necessity might change things if they were only loosely committed. And I don't think this is duplicitous: I think a very likely outcome for a lot of big corporations will be a "mandatory" return to the office which, in practice, is so riddled with exemptions that everyone who wants to wfh is allowed to.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#148

Post by 29athrowaway » Wed, May 12, 2021, 5:04 AM UTC

If I was your manager, the questions I would ask are:

- Do you have a designated space that is adequate and safe for work?

- Do you have an ergonomic setup including an ergonomic chair and desk?

- Do you have reliable / high speed internet connectivity?

- Do you have a proper microphone setup? (and camera if required)?

- Will you commit to be responsive via instant messaging or another communication solution during office hours?

- Will you comply with good practices regarding the handling and disposal of confidential or sensitive information?

If you can answer yes to all of that, I would have no problems with you becoming a remote employee.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#149

Post by Root_Denied » Wed, May 12, 2021, 5:13 AM UTC

rizpanjwani wrote: post #25

Playing devil's advocate: as a business/employer why would I continue to pay you your current first-world salary rather than find someone top-notch for 1/3 your salary in India, or any other English speaking country with a lower cost of living?

You would need to hire a 3rd party contractor and offshore the work to them, otherwise there's tax implications in hiring outside your US state, let alone another country (unless you're in the EU). As others have said, if you could do this you already would have.

If you're a large multinational with offices all over the world and the accounting and HR staff to manage that kind of setup, then that might be an option - but even those hire domestic US workers for a lot of remote/wfh roles.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#150

Post by midasuni » Wed, May 12, 2021, 5:16 AM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #112

heavyset_go wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The median commute time results in spending almost 10 days commuting a year.

Considering the kind of people I'd have to live amongst if I lived near the jobs 20 days is a small price to pay for freedom and sanity.

Given the discussion is about working from wherever you want, that’s your choice. You can live in the centre of a city, or in a cabin in the woods. You have the power. You have the freedom.