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Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

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Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#61

Post by ineptech »

I manage people and have some advice.

Start with, "I'd like to be converted to full remote, what's the process for that?" The answer is probably "I don't know but I don't think it would fly." Insist that your manager ask up the chain for an official answer.

If the answer is "nope", next say: "I'm not comfortable returning to the office for health reasons. Will I be fired?" This is two-pronged:

a) it introduces private healthcare decisions, a legally fraught topic they do not want to deal with. Is it legal to fire someone for refusing to return to the office despite health concerns? Probably, but no one knows for sure and your employer does not want to be the test case. (If they ask, "what health concerns?" remind them that's private. Don't invent a fictitious medically-fragile aunt.)

b) It may force them to confront the fact that they will lose people over this. They very likely think of wfh as a perk, something they can decide by fiat without consequence. If no one quits over it, that's exactly what it will be.

If they stick to their guns, it's time to look for another job I suppose. If they have some explanation for why wfh is bad ("productivity is down, look at this graph", or "the value of hallway conversations" or whatever) I wouldn't bother arguing unless it's a small enough company that you can argue with the person who made the decision.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#62

Post by quickthrower2 »

pfp wrote: post #56

Don't negotiate. Dictate. I'm not joking either. I tried negotiating this (pre-covid), only to get a "final offer" of a measly couple of remote days etc. Being on the spectrum, I took their word at face value, found another job that does 100% remote, and put in my resignation. Surprisingly that "absolutely final" position wasn't that final anymore, and they'd've rather had me remote than not at all. Had the new job n…

Companies are well accustomed to bullshitting employees, so many people do fall for their lies.

Or they may have not been lying but just reacting to circumstances. They can’t give everyone everything needed to make everyone stay if the threaten to leave but they can do it for the one who does actually threaten to leave.

As a team lead I don’t believe in convincing someone to stay if they took an offer. Their heart and soul has left the building!

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#63

Post by LAC-Tech »

adamnemecek wrote: post #26
rizpanjwani wrote: post #25

Playing devil's advocate: as a business/employer why would I continue to pay you your current first-world salary rather than find someone top-notch for 1/3 your salary in India, or any other English speaking country with a lower cost of living?

Time zone differences are bad.

I'm a remote contractor, and my policy is to essentially work my clients time zone. Right now I'm 11am-7pm (I'm in NZ, they're mostly in Sydney, Australia).

For a while my team was all in Malaysia, so I did 2pm-10pm.

Hell for the right contract I'd work as far east as texas, mon-fri 10am-6pm for them, tues-sat 5am-1pm for me.

No one asks me to do this, but it just makes life easier, and clients like knowing that I'm working normal hours and will pick up the phone.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#64

Post by heavyset_go »

Make it clear that you have, live with, or take care of someone with health conditions that make you worry for your own health or someone else's.

Organize with your coworkers who feel the same way as you do about returning to the office, and negotiate as a group.

It also helps to have an offer from a company that can meet your needs if your current employer won't.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#65

Post by xtracto »

I was in an executive position at a startup that wouldn't move to full work from home. I quit and moved to another startup that will let me work from home. In the end it was higher salary, lower responsibilities and the ability to work form anywhere. Best decision I could have made.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#66

Post by quickthrower2 »

throw14082020 wrote: post #40
tsukikage wrote: post #9

I will be starting that conversation with my boss later this week. At the end of the day, I think the key thing is you need to be fully prepared to move on if negotiations fail and the current job doesn't deliver what you are after. For myself, I have enough buffer and leads that I am confident I can get somewhere fully remote or at least closer to home before the savings get uncomfortably low, and so that's my red l…

Absolutely, people talk about mindset, and this is it. You should be prepared to walk away from a bad deal: going back into the office. However, don't reveal things like "youre willing to compromise on salary to work from home". I've made a lot of concessions when I really want something, and thinking back, I didn't need to in many cases. In fact, ask for a raise in the same conversation. Be mentally prepared to ask…

Never offer to be paid less for X. Even a shorter work week. Let them say you get paid less first (they may not) and then counter. I’m mainly writing this comment for me later on :-)

It’s simply the case not everyone wants to screw you down on cost. Don’t assume they will. If you have every purchased a Mac when a pc is cheaper (or similar buying the brand when generic is cheaper) or paid more for the pizza from the restaurant you love, you’ll know what I mean.

In fact if the pizza place says “sorry delivery only due to COVID so pizzas are half price” I’d think “huh... what’s wrong with their pizza?”

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#67

Post by ska »

bityard wrote: post #57
dbenny wrote: post #54

CTO at Markforged here. If you can't work it out with your employer hit us up. We're hiring remote software engineers. We'll ship you a printer so you can dev from home. Good luck! Like a lot of other commenters have posted - you have options.

A printer?

3D printer I presume.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#68

Post by heavyset_go »

pfp wrote: post #56

Don't negotiate. Dictate. I'm not joking either. I tried negotiating this (pre-covid), only to get a "final offer" of a measly couple of remote days etc. Being on the spectrum, I took their word at face value, found another job that does 100% remote, and put in my resignation. Surprisingly that "absolutely final" position wasn't that final anymore, and they'd've rather had me remote than not at all. Had the new job n…

> boring commutes

They're not just boring, they're dangerous and expensive, especially if you're commuting by car. Commutes are responsible for a 9.91% drop in hourly wages[1].

Using the media commute time, a commuter might spend close to 10 days per year just commuting, and in some cases it's closer to two full weeks[1]:

> In the area with the longest average commute (New York-Newark-Jersey City), commuters are spending an average of 13 days, 2 hours, and 26 minutes driving to and from work. That means that 14 vacation days a year are barely covering the time it takes to get to work every day. So in addition to dropping the average wage from $34.71 per hour to $30.15 per hour, in order to get 14 days of hanging with their family on a beach, New York commuters must be willing to spend nearly as much time sitting in a car.

[1] https://go.frontier.com/business/commute-calculator

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#70

Post by koolba »

Find another job and don’t tell them anything until you have a firm offer. When it gets to that point tell them it’s full remote or the highway. If they refuse, walk.

If you do mention the offer after being refused your ultimatum, do not expect your job to be secure. You’ll be a marked man as you’ve demonstrated that you’re willing to walk away. Unless they counter with a substantial enough pay bump and you have equally substantial faith in them upholding the agreement for the long term (unlikely), walk.

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