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Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

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Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#141

Post by dragontamer »

ysavir wrote: post #118
dragontamer wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or 3: The law works differently than you expect. Asking for a victim to find the "root cause" of a problem is too much to ask. If X wronged Y causes a wrong to happen to Z... the legal system is largely designed for "Z sues Y" then "Y sues X". Asking for Z to sue X directly is asking for too much. There's no way for Z to even know that X exists.

> There's no way for Z to even know that X exists Other than the time that X explicitly and directly asked Z for access to their data, you mean. This isn't similar to a case where I stored my users' info in a database on Cloud Hosting Service Inc machines, CHS's lax security allowed the data to be hacked, and I am now accountable to my users because I used an insecure service. Facebook's role in this situation was, l…

Doesn't change my overall point.

Asking for Z to sue X has a number of issues:

1. Z doesn't know Y's policy towards X. Is the problem truly Y's fault or X's fault? "Z sues Y" doesn't necessarily implicate Y as the root cause, it just proves that Y was "along the way" towards the root cause.

2. Y sues X is a totally separate question. Consider the case where a car-parts company creates a suspension ("X"), who sells their suspensions to Ford (aka: Y). Sometime while customer "Z" was driving, the suspension fails. Z sues Y for a million bucks to cover the cost of back surgery or something. Y then has to argue with X to figure out who was responsible for the suspension failure. Depending on the agreements / contracts Y could be the root cause, or X. (Maybe it's Y's fault: if Y was using the suspensions incorrectly and X can prove it, then the Y-sues-X case will fail).

In this #2 case: if Z sues X directly, Z will fail (because X is not at fault). Its safer for Z to sue Y... and its also the morally sound way to move things forward.

----------

For better or worse, Z (the typical user) has a relationship with Facebook (Y). Cambridge Analytica is X. Whether X or Y is at fault is still ambiguous from Z's perspective (no reason for Z to come up with legal arguments and determine the "right person to sue").

All Z has to prove is someone wronged him, and that Y is the next person up the chain. Let Y's lawyers figure out if Y or X is responsible. Z just needs compensation for Z's issues alone.

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#142

Post by hshshs2 »

Nasrudith wrote: post #52
nvoid wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm no Facebook fan I like how we have to preface our opinions with this now. I think if you're on HN it's a given at this point. I would agree with you that there are a lot of stupid people on the site and they will still find away to do something stupid. But I despise harsh regulation and I don't think that's necessarily the solution. However, when the stakes are so high (elections) I think there is something to…

The stakes change nothing about who is actually responsible. If a terrorist steals your car and uses it for an attack does that mean it is right to hold you accountable because the matter is so serious? Facebook is not your parent. That logic, that others need to be "held accountable" and that voters are children who cannot be trusted to make up their own minds is far more dangerous to democracy than the Cambridge An…

It’s not that voters can’t be trusted, they’re simply outgunned. To keep up everyone would need a personal lawyer reading every TOS they encounter. It’s insurmountable.

Facebook has thousands of lawyers and engineers acting against your best interest when it comes to data privacy because they profit off of it. Very few people actually understand what they’re giving up and that’s by design. Hell there are lots of people on HN that don’t seem to understand the extent of control facebook exercises over you and your friends’ data, and I wouldn’t be surprised if that extended to some of the people actually building this stuff.

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#143

Post by 14 »

coding123 wrote: post #58
squeaky-clean wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> CA asked for data and user said yes I think a lot of people are forgetting that you were also able to get tons of data on a user's friends, just from that user accepting. No consent on the friends part. If you and I were FB friends and I accepted one of those requests, CA now also knows your profile info and likes.

What you said. I was starting to read the like 100 comments about how people clicked yes and so be it, but the entire time I was thinking, wait, no, that's not what happened. It's what you just said. Amazing how a little time leads to revisionist history for these people defending facebook.

I absolutely believe in my mind that big companies are actively posting to HN, Reddit, FB, et all, to steer different narratives.

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#144

Post by coding123 »

Alex3917 wrote: post #62
Nextgrid wrote: post #3

I'm no Facebook fan but the reasons behind the lawsuit are bad and could set a bad precedent. Cambridge Analytica used the Facebook API to ask users to share data about them & their friends. Stupid users agreed to that. The argument here isn't that Facebook is playing fast and loose with tracking & user data (which would be a legitimate argument), it's that Facebook is allowing people to grant access to their data to…

Before the Cambridge Analytica thing, everyone was saying that Facebook was evil because they were a walled garden. So they created an API, and now everyone is saying they're evil because they created an API. Go figure. There's even a Gaping Void cartoon memorializing the sentiment: http://vhirsch.com/blog/2011/10/06/walled-gardens/

Maybe they are just evil...?

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#145

Post by [deleted] »

pjc50 wrote: post #130
stickfigure wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why does Facebook allow people to share the data of others who didn't agree to this? I have names, email addresses, phone numbers, birthdates, email contents, and more for most of my friends. There's no centralized arbiter of this information; I have the ability to share this data in any way I choose. And I do! I switch email providers, install apps on my phone, use calendaring systems, tell our friends where to me…

> we understand that it's "my" data Not really; it's their data, and you're allowed to use it. > Inserting Facebook in this process doesn't really change the dynamic. Yes it does, because while you (the individual) are allowed under GDPR to use the personal data of your friends for personal purposes, that doesn't automatically entitle Facebook to use it for their purposes. Only on your behalf for your purposes.

[deleted]

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#146

Post by [deleted] »

zaphar wrote: post #95
indigochill wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I put on my blinders against this being Facebook for a moment, supposing that you're on a social network in which your friend is someone you personally trust, then it's not that ridiculous to trust that person with the decision to share your data. In a very limited way, you kind of expect this (your friend giving your number to someone who they think you'll get along with, or whatever). This goes a bit sideways on…

In a very limited way, you kind of expect this (your friend giving your number to someone who they think you'll get along with, or whatever). I absolutely do not expect this. Nor would I be okay with a friend sharing my number to someone they think I'll get along with. I don't think I'm alone in this either.

[deleted]

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#147

Post by musingsole »

ArnoVW wrote: post #140
btown wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Facebook is being sued for... not having technical mitigations to guard against contractual breaches?

the way the legal system works: you are responsible for your contracts. If your supplier messes up, your customers sue you, you sue your supplier.

I haven't seen it phrased that way before, and now that I have, I simultaneously accept the logic of it and am horrified by the bureaucratic churn that must spin up just to ferry legal responsibility to (in theory) the correct party.

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#148

Post by stiray »

stickfigure wrote: post #43
ginko wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The argument here isn't that Facebook is playing fast and loose with tracking & user data (which would be a legitimate argument), it's that Facebook is allowing people to grant access to their data to third-parties and Facebook should somehow be faulted for that. Even so you wrote yourself that users shared data about their friends. Why does Facebook allow people to share the data of others who didn't agree to this?

> Why does Facebook allow people to share the data of others who didn't agree to this? I have names, email addresses, phone numbers, birthdates, email contents, and more for most of my friends. There's no centralized arbiter of this information; I have the ability to share this data in any way I choose. And I do! I switch email providers, install apps on my phone, use calendaring systems, tell our friends where to me…

Foreplay: I know that you don't like what you read but this is a diction of GDPR, so before you start down-voting, please - Rec.74; Art.24 and read [1]) as the "entity" that obtained the data.

Let me shed some light. Facebook/Google have nothing to do with it except they are breaking the law because of you that have planted data from you friends without their consent.

Following the GDPR, the one who gave personally identifiable information (PII) to the Google/Facebook/whatever, makes HIM/YOU/HER responsible for whatever they do with it.

(Or in other words - if you are gathering the personal data on your website for a 3rd party, you better be sure that the 3rd party has a strong legal bond with you regarding the information you have "traded" to it or you might have troubles.)

Even if "your friend" has given his/hers PII to you, you dont have any consent to share it with whatever 3rd party application you are using and is stealing your data based on "I Agree button". This is making you, as a controller of PII responsible for his PII. If the 3rd party application ("Facebook/Google/...) took it from you for whatever "reason", those information were not yours to share and you have zero comfort in not being given consent. You have decided, for your friend, that you will share his/hers information with 3rd party application. Due to negligence (you didn't read the "I Agree" text, you didn't care (negligence),... whatever. It really doesn't matter.)

You have two troubles here.

- The application was violating GDPR. Clearly. Without any doubt. They slurped in the PII data from your friends which gave no consent. They might argue that you have misleaded them. In this case all guilt is on you. Unless they are well known for their acts. Which against paints a big red text "negligence" over your forehead.

- YOU were violating GDPR by not taking care for PII of your friend and giving it to 3rd party without consent, approval, anything ("Hey I just took his phone number").

Not only can 3rd party application be held guilty of stockpiling PII without consent, in same manner can YOU be guilty of giving them PII data (oh yeah, "I Agree" button) and your "friend" has all the law support in EU to sue you for this - EU wont, they have larger fish to fry but your friend can and might.

[1] - GDPR defines a controller as: >>> the natural >> determines the purposes and means of the processing <<< of personal data

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#149

Post by mancerayder »

hunter-gatherer wrote: post #31
manux wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Facebook is allowing people to grant access to their data to third-parties and Facebook should somehow be faulted for that. It's not clear to me that they shouldn't be faulted. How many people read terms and conditions? How many people lack the technological literacy to understand what it means to share their facebook data with third-parties? It seems to me like we should make our systems robust to the average user…

> It's not clear to me that they shouldn't be faulted. How many people read terms and conditions? How many people lack the technological literacy to understand what it means to share their facebook data with third-parties? I'm not trying to argue here, but I see this argument pop up often when discussing big tech and user data. I'm curious why the tone is so different when it comes to mortgages or auto loans, for exa…

> I'm not trying to argue here, but I see this argument pop up often when discussing big tech and user data. I'm curious why the tone is so different when it comes to mortgages or auto loans, for example. It seems society is content with the notion that I must do my ow due diligence when buying a home, but for whatever reason that responsibility seems to slide away when I'm dealing with social media. Why is that?

That's a legitimate and good question.

And the answer is that the mortgage industry is highly regulated, and so there are things that the federal government demands (if we're talking about the U.S.) and additionally that states demand. So if you sign a mortgage paperwork in my state, for example, there are Riders that have to be provided. Same with signing up for a credit card. One page information sheets MANDATED by the government that the consumer gets to see, before having to sign contracts.

You don't need to be a lawyer to not get screwed.

Another good example. Residential leases are long, technical contracts. However, the state law overrides what's in it. So even if someone signs something that violates their rights, it won't apply. In some cases, the landlord can be sued for damages. Additionally, Riders are often mandated by the state that the landlord should provide, that summarizes rights.

The problem is that individual user data privacy is NOT regulated.

The lack of regulations and laws are why we're all arguing right now.

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#150

Post by prostoalex »

marcosdumay wrote: post #125
prostoalex wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but do you really need their birthday or a sentiment analysis of their opinion of cheesecakes If you go back to the Wild West of the Facebook apps, shortly after platform launch there was an app for everything - apps for fancy birthday cards with birthday reminders, as well as polling apps telling you which one of your friends is the biggest cheesecake lover. Every piece of data can be spun into being essential.

And you can collect each piece of information as soon as the user decides to use some app that needs it to function. Just not before.

A polling app building a “psychological compatibility profile” can arbitrarily add new data points, and “streamline” the onboarding process by collecting all of the necessary data with one click (with fully disclosed list of collected data points).

Which is what CA has built.

Not just them - any survey app claiming to help you find out “which Game of Thrones characters you and your friends are” can arbitrarily claim those data points as necessary.

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