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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#471

Post by R0b0t1 »

kuschku wrote: post #460
R0b0t1 wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m saying that because if you ever type in your password, e.g. into a screenlocker, into a terminal with sudo, or an apt-get gui, every application can listen to those input events. And any program can (on a relatively default box) trace arbitrary programs under your gid and scan memory for passwords. The real issue here is that there are very weak process boundaries within a gid (because it is historically most c…

Every other boundary can be restricted relatively easily. For example, flatpak already solves the issue you mention. But the X11 boundary can’t be resolved unless you put a whole X server into every single application’s container with XonX, or you replace X11. Which is part of why wayland exists.

Can be restricted when appropriate. Removing the ability to share resources and calling Wayland complete is what people are laughing at.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#472

Post by toast0 »

arepublicadoceu wrote: post #401
seabird wrote: post #301

It's really rich when these types get riled up about software having very obvious flaws. I respect the author and really want to like Wayland, but there's big things missing. I recently installed Fedora after my Windows install bombed out after an update. I went to play World of Warcraft with my buddies and found that the mouse handling in Wayland was pretty severely broken, at least for WoW. You move by clicking bot…

You can't play World of Warcraft well under wine and you call this one of your two big things? The second being, screen sharing broken for you. Well, for me it works really well, maybe you didn't google hard enough? Now I suggest you to google extremely hard on how to make x11 handle displays with mixed DPI. A way more common usecase than running World of Warcraft though a compatibility layer AKA Wine. If you find a…

> Now I suggest you to google extremely hard on how to make x11 handle displays with mixed DPI.

Look, if it's ok to say don't buy nvidia graphics cards and expect to use Wayland, why is it not ok to say don't buy mixed DPI and expect to use X11?

Mixed DPI is a giant PITA, and high DPI is also a PITA, so just buy regular DPI monitors that are about similar. :P

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#473

Post by _0w8t »

nescioquid wrote: post #198
patrickaljord wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can certainly understand the frustration at having to deal with a community that gets annoyed at anything that changes simply because they're already so used to the garbage pile they have that they now hold the delusion that it's actually not garbage. It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones).…

> It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI This seems to point to the general situation of change fatigue. If you pick up a random Android device, what does the "settings" app icon look like? Individually, these things are small, but the small impedances these changes introduce does take a toll on people, especially when…

In many cases the UI changes are driven by the desire to attract new users under assumption that the previous UI was not sufficiently attractive.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#474

Post by floatboth »

Jarolis wrote: post #426
cturner wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remote windowing is a legacy of the era when universities ran dozens of dumb terminals from a server. It would be bizarre to pursue that in an era of hardware-accelerated graphics. If the Wayland design was weighed down by such things, it could never hope to be progress.

How many people use TeamViewer, Anydesk, etc? I don't see how remote windowing is legacy. The feature would be a huge hit if it were modernized and made more accessible and efficient (akin to Microsoft's RDP), and that's only possible if it's a core part of the protocol.

TeamViewer/AnyDesk/VNC is not "remote windowing", it's "remote access" to a whole desktop. And that's easily available for the wlroots ecosystem https://github.com/any1/wayvnc

But actually "remote windowing/apps" is even better supported, it's a universal proxy: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe Absolutely does not require any support from the core protocol.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#475

Post by kuschku »

pmoriarty wrote: post #438
spijdar wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professional pentester here - Wayland alone doesn't really do much for you, security wise. It is still very possible for an application simply running under a wayland compositor to do lots of nasty things. The Wayland protocol provides the building blocks for someone to create an Android-like sandboxed environment, but doing so would break every application. Snaps and Flatpak come closer, but still generally miss the…

"But Xorg doesn't have to run as root" All the hand wringing over root privilege escalation on Linux is almost irrelevant for most single-user systems, as since there's really only one non-root account which usually has all the data the user cares about, getting access to just that non-root account would be disaster enough for the user.[1] So if Wayland's design is standing in the way of doing useful things because t…

The goal isn’t to prevent escalation to root, but to prevent escalation out of a sandbox.

If you sandbox an application today, while it can’t access the filesystem at all, and nothing under your user account, as long as it can show you a window under X11, it can log, manipulate, and inject any input events or window contents of any other windows as well.

That’s the one single big hole in todays sandboxes under linux, and there’s only two options to solve it: put a whole separate X server into the sandbox of every single application with X-on-X, or replace X. Which is one of the things wayland fixes.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#476

Post by yobert »

thatguy0900 wrote: post #340
boudin wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reverse is also true. Don't blame people maintaining software for changing your routine. You make a lot of assumptions there but the reality is often much more nuanced. Everything changes, all the time, that's a rule that is true for absolutely everything in life.

Is that really true? I can get into basically any car and understand everything immediately because they are all mostly the same. If Linux could software update the insides of a Linux car it would be unrecognizable every year.

Actually your analogy goes more the other way. My minivan is nothing like my suburban from when I was a kid except for having a steering wheel and a gas pedal. Pushbutton electric start, automatic transmission, power steering, automatic door locks, wireless key fob, bluetooth stereo comes on by itself without asking me, and probably next year it will be an electric vehicle with completely different mechanical characteristics. Basically, /bin/bash is the same and you might compare that to the steering wheel.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#477

Post by 72deluxe »

dancek wrote: post #342
Miraste wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience Gnome is the worst major FOSS project for this. Ever since Gnome 3 the design philosophy of all of their projects seems to be "find out what the users want and do the opposite."

I've heard this from a couple of power users before. But maybe GNOME does not optimize for power users?

I remember following the GNOME blog for some time and finally decided I'd never go back after the article on how gEdit was being "improved" by completely hiding the menubar, the toolbar and basically any usable controls. It was written such that "focus" and "distraction-free" computing was the ultimate goal and that UI controls were somehow "distracting".... The file open/save dialog involves multiple clicks before it is usable because obviously a path edit box is WAY too distracting...

I don't ever remember cursing my Windows 3.11 machine that the scrollbar and toolbar icons were distracting in File Manager, nor do I crash my car when the speedometer changes and wish that the distraction of the speedo and rev counter was removed.

I remember using GNOME2 and loving it.

I often wonder constitutes a "power user" - someone who wants to actually get stuff done and not fight the UI to discover things??

I wonder when iOS became the ideal - blindly fumble around whitespace to see if some text is actually a button or if there is some unfathomable control hidden that you need a magic incantation to discover (swipe left on a list control is delete - my mum still doesn't know this)?

Is a "power user" someone who has learned all the different ways of interacting with a modern user interface? You used to learn: click, double-click and scrollwheel. Now every interaction with a control is different and impossible to learn or discover simply by using it. Absymal.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#478

Post by floatboth »

dleslie wrote: post #147
BoysenberryPi wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No problem, the biggest ones I tried were Godot, Krita, and Steam. Godot does not run on Wayland although support seems to be planned somewhere down the pipeline. Krita "runs" on Wayland but a lot of the features do not work nor does pen support last time I checked. Steam just doesn't work. Edit: A commenter on this thread mentioned Emacs. I have not tried that as I have recently switched to Emacs but if that is true…

Basically all GTK2 apps won't work.

They won't be native but of course they just work via xwayland

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#479

Post by vaylian »

kevincox wrote: post #185
vaylian wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has no experience with Wayland: What are the telltale signs that a problem is related to Wayland and not the application itself? I've gotten curious. I want to try Wayland in the near future. But it would be good to have an idea of what kind of issues I might encounter, so that I can change back to X11 in an emergency.

I don't think there is really much. Most of the bugs you will see stem from software having a different codepath for each. For example I know that drag and drop is a little buggy on Firefox under Wayland not because of the protocol, just a state management bug that they are trying to track down. (however Firefox still uses XWayland by default so it isn't really relevant anyways). But I suspect we are roughly around t…

Thanks! I'll look up PipeWire.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#480

Post by NoodleIncident »

_coveredInBees wrote: post #137

So many comments here are missing the point of the rant. If it doesn't work for you, fine, move on. But it takes a special type of asshole to go around harassing maintainers and continuously putting down their hard work and in many cases just making overly broad and incorrect generalizations or propagating outright lies. There is a big difference between constructive criticism and what drove the author to write that…

> “Wayland sucks!” is a conspiracy theory with no basis in truth, and its supporters have spent years harassing Wayland maintainers, contributors, and users.

See that "and"? Your comment here only addresses the second half of that sentence, which is probably true, and people shouldn't do that. Most of this thread is discussing the first half, which doesn't seem like it's actually correct. You can't say "people are missing the point" when he's making two points in the same rant.

There are pro-wayland people in this thread arguing the former point ("Wayland works for almost everyone"), and mostly they aren't putting up convincing arguments. So far I've seen: "it's really someone else's fault" (ok, in the meantime wayland doesn't work for me") -- "actually no operating system should support this" (ok, back to windows or apple or non-wayland linux it is).

> More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago.

> [Wayland] invented some new, fixable problems in the process — most of which have been fucking fixed already, and years ago!

> Most of the lies you’ve heard about ways that it’s broken are just that: lies.

The author didn't support these statements at all (which is the whole point of the rant, he's tired of doing that. that's fine). Someone else has to do that for this rant to make sense. So people are saying, "here is my common use case. how does it work on wayland now?" If they only thought it was broken due to lies and propaganda, it would be easy to explain how it's since been fixed. But people aren't.

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