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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#441

Post by Spivak »

R0b0t1 wrote: post #414
rbanffy wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is actually one of the big, unfixable, conceptual problems of Wayland Why not have a shared implementation?

Because then you end up with something like X11, which we already have. The codebase could be re-engineered, sure, but a lot of people championing Wayland tend to see this duplication of effort as good for some reason, and at least last I engaged with them did not like the idea of a "new X11." Personally I think something like that is an inevitability.

Because the Xorg mono-culture was bad. There was no ability to write other X11 display servers from the spec alone. You either did what Xorg did bug for bug or apps broke. By having many different implementations all speaking a common protocol you make it harder to calcify the behaviors of any one implementation and ensure that the spec is what apps code against.

People seem to like that we have many browser implementations but when it comes to display servers it seems like they want Chrome to rule them all.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#442

Post by zzz143 »

tarruda wrote: post #429
zzz143 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Spending your life hacking on Wayland when the world has pretty conclusively assigned capital to headless Linux use cases does speak for itself, yes. He has worked on projects other than wayland. Sourcehut is a notable example: A free github alternative that has great e-mail integration. One of the amazing features is that the UI uses no javascript (pure server side python) and is super fast.

[flagged]

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#443

Post by RedShift1 »

forgotmypw17 wrote: post #190
patrickaljord wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can certainly understand the frustration at having to deal with a community that gets annoyed at anything that changes simply because they're already so used to the garbage pile they have that they now hold the delusion that it's actually not garbage. It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones).…

well yeah, i just got used to it working a certain way, now i gotta figure it out again. fucking nerds acting like it,s no big deal when shit i use every day is all changed up. do you have any idea how much cognitive load that is for the average user to figure out new ui? and usually for no good reason, just to change shit up so someone can get credit for a project. don,t blame the users for software being shit. it,s…

I think the biggest problem is software changing from under people's feet. We used to have stable version cycles and when it was time to upgrade, users expected change and having to re-learn some stuff. But now things just change whenever. And sometimes drastically, like buttons that previously had a fixed place and were always there can now only be accessed by moving your cursor in the right place. Very frustrating.

I see your comment's flagged, maybe because of the harsh language but other than that it all rings true to me.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#444

Post by m-p-3 »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

> If you insist on disregarding people's use cases, don't be surprised they don't like your software.

Eventually that use-case in Xorg/X11 will cease to function when it becomes obsolete and unmaintained, but I agree how bad the outright dismissal of someone's use-case can be perceived. There has to be a civil discussion on both ends.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#446

Post by floatboth »

Quekid5 wrote: post #271
unanswered wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, this right here is the (technical, not social) problem with systemd. Whether anyone points out that systemd is doing something stupid and wrong, the systemd shills' answer is always "well duh what did you expect when you didn't modify one of the hundred default configuration files to have `[stupidshit] = false`! You brought this on yourself!" And you're lucky if that even works to solve the problem.

On this particular issue I find it hard to fault them for using a (perhaps overly) safe default. Summarily killing processes with a SIGKILL should really be a last resort because it can very easily corrupt data. If you have processes which just hang for ages during shutdown, there is probably something wrong with your system (or the process's code) which might warrant further investigation.

If your software corrupts data when it's killed, it's honestly not very good software.

I kinda wish "proper shutdown" was never invented at all. That would've motivated so many developers to care about reliability much more :P

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#447

Post by betterunix2 »

foldr wrote: post #355
betterunix2 wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The option always remains to change it yourself or stop using it." If I changed every bit of software I dislike, I would have no time left for my actual job. Yeah, I get it, these volunteers found the time to work on this one project and therefore get more of a say about what changes will be made, but you know what? They also have to use other software, and they would not have time to work on something like Gnome if…

All I see here is that you're not going to get everything that you want. No-one is. We are all using software that's imperfectly adapted to our personal use cases. Unfortunately, unless we're paying, no-one is under any obligation to change it for us, and we'll have to make do as best we can.

The funny thing is that a lot of users switch to open source software because the proprietary software they had been paying for was not supporting their obscure use case. You know, it is not something worth the investment because only a handful of users care or it works against the interests of some business partner or whatever.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#448

Post by duxup »

Fellshard wrote: post #424
duxup wrote: post #119

I understand the frustration, but somewhat related: I'm dismayed by how much people just categorize everything as 'anti-' or 'hit piece' (when it comes to news) or ... something that implies some sort of extreme bias or conspiracy when it comes to an opinion they don't like these days. Nobody it seems has a valid point of view, it's so often just some sort of 'propaganda' or something...

The irony in this case being that the author of the post sounds like they believe there is a conspiracy of conspiracy-theorists against the tool.

I don't know anything about 'conspiracy of conspiracies' as much as people just reach for that type of terminology when they see an opinion they don't like.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#449

Post by innagadadavida »

pmlnr wrote: post #199
patrickaljord wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can certainly understand the frustration at having to deal with a community that gets annoyed at anything that changes simply because they're already so used to the garbage pile they have that they now hold the delusion that it's actually not garbage. It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones).…

> It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones). It really makes people angry when things don't work the same anymore, let alone when it doesn't even work anymore for their use case. Most of them are too frequent, automatic, plus they are not actual improvements.

> Most of them are too frequent, automatic, plus they are not actual improvements.

It seems like the developers and product managers want to show progress but the uses just want you to fix boring bugs. It will help if the product folks think of memory, perf and stability as very important features and stop chasing new features for the sake of it.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#450

Post by R0b0t1 »

kuschku wrote: post #209
spijdar wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professional pentester here - Wayland alone doesn't really do much for you, security wise. It is still very possible for an application simply running under a wayland compositor to do lots of nasty things. The Wayland protocol provides the building blocks for someone to create an Android-like sandboxed environment, but doing so would break every application. Snaps and Flatpak come closer, but still generally miss the…

> This is ... not true, either broadly or generally I’m saying that because if you ever type in your password, e.g. into a screenlocker, into a terminal with sudo, or an apt-get gui, every application can listen to those input events. Every application has the ability to be a keylogger by default. And with that captured password, it then can either inject input events into your terminal, or run sudo itself. > The Way…

> I’m saying that because if you ever type in your password, e.g. into a screenlocker, into a terminal with sudo, or an apt-get gui, every application can listen to those input events.

And any program can (on a relatively default box) trace arbitrary programs under your gid and scan memory for passwords. The real issue here is that there are very weak process boundaries within a gid (because it is historically most convenient), not necessarily a lot wrong with X11.

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