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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#451

Post by renewiltord »

GrayShade wrote: post #384
rpiguyshy wrote: post #309

thats cool that its also on gemeni. why did ubuntu use wayland and then switch back to X? i think this is a great piece of evidence in the case for all these open source guys to stop wasting their effort on open source projects. the amount of utility that is got per unit time and effort is pathetic. its thankless, hard work that in this case will basically be rejected by the very people it was designed for. i think a…

> why did ubuntu use wayland and then switch back to X? They're switching again to Wayland: [1] [1]: https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/trying-wayland-by-default-aga...

Default is X for nvidia users. Phew.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#452

Post by Spivak »

sokoloff wrote: post #330
samsari wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The distinction really really does matter, if your argument is "wayland is shit".

That depends on if the precise argument is closer to "Wayland, as experienced by everyday users, is shit" or "Wayland, as a Platonic ideal, is shit." People, especially people trying to work done on their computers, usually mean the former.

Just say Mutter or Kwin are shit then. Saying Wayland is shit is like HTML is shit because you don't like Firefox.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#453

Post by floatboth »

Conan_Kudo wrote: post #295
throwaways885 wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a big issue is there's no discipline in the Linux community. The Kernel team has done an amazing job of preserving ABI compatibility through every last byte, but then you look at projects like glib or GNOME which seem to pride themselves on huge, sweeping, changes and don't care if downstream consumers are hurt by the changes. Edit: glib not glibc

The Linux kernel team does not preserve ABI in almost all scenarios, just only specifically with the syscall interface. Everything else is not stable. The GNU C standard library has binary backwards compatibility going back 20 years. They take great pains to preserve that. Are you thinking of glib instead of glibc? The former is from GNOME, and the latter is not.

"Syscall interface" is what most people mean by "$SYSTEM's ABI"

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#454

Post by [deleted] »

_coveredInBees wrote: post #137

So many comments here are missing the point of the rant. If it doesn't work for you, fine, move on. But it takes a special type of asshole to go around harassing maintainers and continuously putting down their hard work and in many cases just making overly broad and incorrect generalizations or propagating outright lies. There is a big difference between constructive criticism and what drove the author to write that…

[deleted]

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#455

Post by hansvm »

boudin wrote: post #237
forgotmypw17 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well yeah, i just got used to it working a certain way, now i gotta figure it out again. fucking nerds acting like it,s no big deal when shit i use every day is all changed up. do you have any idea how much cognitive load that is for the average user to figure out new ui? and usually for no good reason, just to change shit up so someone can get credit for a project. don,t blame the users for software being shit. it,s…

The reverse is also true. Don't blame people maintaining software for changing your routine. You make a lot of assumptions there but the reality is often much more nuanced. Everything changes, all the time, that's a rule that is true for absolutely everything in life.

With FOSS on my own devices that's usually pretty easy -- I'll install what I like, and I expect that most reasonable people won't be upset if I choose not to put their software on my machines (clearly not the case in TFA, but you can't make everyone happy).

Probably not your point, but I absolutely do blame maintainers of proprietary software for changing my routine. Webapps, free software, and whatnot I can understand (even if I don't necessarily like it), but if I pay in full for a lifetime license to a specific version of software then I fully expect, at a minimum, for that software to not have auto-updating backdoors for any reason (looking at you Garmin/Navionics).

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#456

Post by _0w8t »

patrickaljord wrote: post #65
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

> I can certainly understand the frustration at having to deal with a community that gets annoyed at anything that changes simply because they're already so used to the garbage pile they have that they now hold the delusion that it's actually not garbage. It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones).…

In case of Gmail many changes were to grab more attention from the user, not to improve anything.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#457

Post by ilamont »

thatguy0900 wrote: post #340
boudin wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reverse is also true. Don't blame people maintaining software for changing your routine. You make a lot of assumptions there but the reality is often much more nuanced. Everything changes, all the time, that's a rule that is true for absolutely everything in life.

Is that really true? I can get into basically any car and understand everything immediately because they are all mostly the same. If Linux could software update the insides of a Linux car it would be unrecognizable every year.

Except when they're not. I made the mistake of assuming the + and - buttons on the steering wheel of my Subaru had the same functionality as those on my Prius' steering wheel, which incrementally adjusts cruise control speed.

On the Subaru, they are clutch controls. The result was downshifting into 1st gear going 70mph/100kmh+.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#458

Post by mncharity »

sigmaprimus wrote: post #4

Yikes! I have no experience or knowledge regarding Wayland, infact this post was the first I have heard of it. That being said, if the author's rant truly reflects the attitude of the community, it's sounds pretty toxic.

> if the author's rant truly reflects the attitude of the community, it's sounds pretty toxic.

There's been a lot of external hostility and conflict over the years. Which unsurprisingly affects community culture.

And the reverse too. I recall encountering surprising "yikes!" even early on, from excursions from professionalism, tone-deafness, and groupthink. Which didn't help with external harmony.

It might be interesting to explore sometime, what might have been done differently long-term, to perhaps have gotten different dynamics. For instance, if replacing X11 had been envisioned as first a broadening of alternatives, and only then a narrowing to a new standard. Open source often uses forking and competing projects to defuse hostility and keep people engaged and productive. Coping gracefully with "lots of diverse everyone trapped on the same boat" isn't its strength.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#459

Post by R0b0t1 »

_coveredInBees wrote: post #137

So many comments here are missing the point of the rant. If it doesn't work for you, fine, move on. But it takes a special type of asshole to go around harassing maintainers and continuously putting down their hard work and in many cases just making overly broad and incorrect generalizations or propagating outright lies. There is a big difference between constructive criticism and what drove the author to write that…

He's saying, literally,

> So my new approach is “fuck you”. None of the Wayland detractors have a clue.

Lumping everyone who may not have a rosy view of Wayland together.

There's a good comment by an (alleged) pentester mentioning how Wayland doesn't really buy you that much. He's right. The bigger issue is lack of isolation within a gid. I can still debug your terminal and try to get your root password.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#460

Post by kuschku »

R0b0t1 wrote: post #450
kuschku wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is ... not true, either broadly or generally I’m saying that because if you ever type in your password, e.g. into a screenlocker, into a terminal with sudo, or an apt-get gui, every application can listen to those input events. Every application has the ability to be a keylogger by default. And with that captured password, it then can either inject input events into your terminal, or run sudo itself. > The Way…

> I’m saying that because if you ever type in your password, e.g. into a screenlocker, into a terminal with sudo, or an apt-get gui, every application can listen to those input events. And any program can (on a relatively default box) trace arbitrary programs under your gid and scan memory for passwords. The real issue here is that there are very weak process boundaries within a gid (because it is historically most c…

Every other boundary can be restricted relatively easily. For example, flatpak already solves the issue you mention.

But the X11 boundary can’t be resolved unless you put a whole X server into every single application’s container with XonX, or you replace X11.

Which is part of why wayland exists.

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