CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs • Hacker News Board

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#421

Post by JimBlizz » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 9:44 AM UTC

brabel wrote: post #406

mdorazio wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These contracts are generally bloated, but if you've never seen how a $10M+ contract for things like this works you're probably thinking about it wrong. The actual development piece is a pretty small portion of the overall work. The bulk of it is figuring out all the requirements, wrangling legacy systems and data into some kind of shape that can either be interfaced with or imported, documentation, support (includin…

Bullshit. The broken system Delloit developed is being replaced with Eventbrite in certain states, pen and paper in others. All the users needed was a simple scheduling system which shouldn't cost anywhere near 40M to develop no matter how you spin it. Is Eventbrite works for this, why did no one actually think to just use that (or the many similar systems created for this kind of thing)? Pretty sure Deloit itself ju…

As much as this contract will certainly be a barrel full of pork, and Deloitte can go eat a bag of hammers, I feel this take is a little naive.

A commercial service is optimised for profit, not broadest accessibility. For example Eventbrite won't spend money developing special features for very specific niche user cohorts because of diminishing returns.

Government websites can't work that way, they have to be accessible and usable by all citizens. Think of people with different learning abilities or language proficiency, the likely environments the users might be in, and their general technical abilities.

Here in the UK there are strict rules about use of clear language, well thought out user flows, how to ask for certain types of information etc that has all been backed by years of research. We have a whole government department that covers this and will audit your new service to make sure it is good enough.

Having done this as a web developer for our Government, it was a massive eye opener to have a copywriter pick through the language I used in a form flow, and point out how confusing it could be to some groups of people. Or indicate that the method by which I was asking for an address made no sense for certain remote locations, and it needed to.

A few specific things to point out on Eventbrite in particular. It seems to me that you are likely have a whole bunch of other requirements too. Off the top of my head you'd need more powerful management tools to control: simply setting up so many locations and dates, who can book when (patient cohorts, priority groups), the logistics of vaccines and vaccinators, tracking vaccine batches used for each person.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#422

Post by aasasd » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 9:45 AM UTC

throwhtrhwthrow wrote: post #350

lmilcin wrote: post #17

I have worked with Deloitte on two projects (on clients' side, I would never willingly work for Deloitte). Generally expect them to do absolute minimum necessary to meet the contract. The code was obfuscated to ensure support contract. The people employed to write it were not interested in the quality in the slightest but were interested a lot in specifics of the contract.

throwaway for obvious reasons. I've worked with Deloitte, PwC, KPMG, and other big consultancies for a diverse range of reasons (regulation audits, security reviews, staff augmentations, etc.) and the value you get for the money you're paying is pretty insane. I'd say the value you're getting is probably 20% of the price you're paying, and I'm being optimistic. You can get good value if you know the people you're hir…

Sounds like one should split the system into small parts, order each one as a separate contract and basically micromanage the contractor into delivering the actual thing.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#423

Post by varispeed » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 9:48 AM UTC

These big contracting companies ganged up in the UK and persuaded the government to change the law so that small independent contractors are no longer competitive (for example they essentially cannot deduct any business costs and have to draw entire contract revenue as salary, that means no funding of other business avenues) and at the current rates such contractors have to pay over 50% in tax, whereas companies like Deloitte not only don't have such costs, they can also hire such contractors as employees without rights. It's a scandal that is going to blow up later this year when the law goes live in April. Similar measures were already introduced in public sector, which caused mass exodus of small firms.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#424

Post by JimBlizz » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 9:50 AM UTC

didibus wrote: post #360

mdorazio wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These contracts are generally bloated, but if you've never seen how a $10M+ contract for things like this works you're probably thinking about it wrong. The actual development piece is a pretty small portion of the overall work. The bulk of it is figuring out all the requirements, wrangling legacy systems and data into some kind of shape that can either be interfaced with or imported, documentation, support (includin…

> Yes it's a lot of overhead, but this isn't a run of the mill green-field SaaS app a few 22 year olds can crank out in a few weeks. I get your point, but also yes it is. The issue is superficial, it's like when I try to Zoom with my mom, it'll take 10 times longer as I need to explain and bring her along every single step of the way. This is the same for these type of contracts. A lot of the slowdowns come from peop…

This is it. Even if the feature set fits perfectly, a private organisation will optimise for profit or growth, not broadest usage.

The user that needs help finding a button isn't worth the development cost. Gov services cannot operate that way.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#425

Post by notmarkus » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 9:50 AM UTC

8bitsrule wrote: post #418

smsm42 wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somebody had written this with exact purpose to give this contract to Deloitte. I would be very surprised if there wasn't bribery involved.

Geez, I thought the whole idea is that 'government is the problem. We need to let the private sector handle all these things.' Making the CDC look bad appears to have been part of that program last year. Shame the price has been so high.

Are you saying this isn't an example of "government is the problem?"

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#426

Post by StavrosK » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 9:51 AM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #420

zaroth wrote: post #115

> Deloitte is the only contractor that can meet the project requirements, because configuration of the VAMS application is occurring using Deloitte’s propriety GovConnect platform. Therefore, no other contractor has rights or access to leverage the system to carry out O&M activities, such as the administration of the system, change and defect management and end user support. As the only contractor with the GovConnect…

For your next laptop, car, etc. try doing what you think the government ought to do here. Write down the requirements, give them to a neutral third party who doesn’t doesn’t use computers/drive, and ask them to figure out the cheapest thing that meets the requirements. Commit yourself to buying only that. See how it goes for you.

I don't understand the analogy. Why would I give the requirements for making a website to someone who doesn't make websites? The government should do whatever anyone who wants a website does, hire someone to make a website. What's the issue?

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#427

Post by crimsoneer » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 9:54 AM UTC

fakedang wrote: post #285

eigenvector wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now think of the problem in reverse, from the government's side. Why are they contracting it out when all of the most difficult aspects involve integrating with government systems, policies and personnel - things that government already knows how to do? "Because we don't have the expertise to do software development." The comments in this thread, which I fully agree with by the way, just cement my belief that if gove…

Exactly. The UK in-housed their entire website IT team, and it's one of the best set of government websites I've seen worldwide, UX-wise and performance-wise.

GDS is a shadow of its former self now though

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#428

Post by CraigJPerry » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 9:54 AM UTC

didibus wrote: post #13

I just don't understand these software deals, the price is so high. At 44 million, you can hire 146 engineers each paid 300k for a full year. Trust me, you need much less to build something like this, and there's no excuse for it to suck so bad. I'm also curious, anyone know where the development actually happened? Did Deloitte further subcontracted out? Was it outsourced?

Those would be public employees, the argument is you’d be crowding out private enterprise. Government should be small goes the argument.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#429

Post by JimBlizz » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 9:54 AM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #387

jariel wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is not cynical enough. Even the part you mentioned: 'wrangling data for legacy systems' does not cost that much, it's still a small piece of the pie. The 'bulk of it' goes to sales, BD, marketing, profits, layers of excess management, specialist consultants, accountants and lawyers. This contract is an example of 'modern world graft'. Healtchare.gov cost $1-2 Billion and it was also a mess until Google Engin…

> 'wrangling data for legacy systems' does not cost that much, it's still a small piece of the pie Are you sure? Because I think it might possibly involve: - interfacing with an old COBOL system - interfacing with an old DB2/ORACLE/(legacy database) with a "very creative" Schema and even more creative indexes (or maybe none - who knows). More bonus points if it's not even ASCII encoded - Production system runs on a V…

You forgot the step where you even need to identify that these things already exist, and whats in them.

Are there governance requirements around the data in them? I'm not familiar with US law, but we're talking about PII in this example so what legal and privacy hoops need jumping to copy the data?

Thats before we get to "Can an person with this specific learning disability, or a person who doesn't have a fixed address navigate through this form?"

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#430

Post by smsm42 » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 9:56 AM UTC

8bitsrule wrote: post #418

smsm42 wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somebody had written this with exact purpose to give this contract to Deloitte. I would be very surprised if there wasn't bribery involved.

Geez, I thought the whole idea is that 'government is the problem. We need to let the private sector handle all these things.' Making the CDC look bad appears to have been part of that program last year. Shame the price has been so high.

Well, the thing is that when the government takes tax money and allocates it to private companies via obscure and arguably corrupt procedures, you get the worst of both worlds. Inefficiency and rigidity of the government, combined with opacity and greed of the private companies.

When people say privatizing things could be a solution, they don't usually mean "take tax money and award it through a no-bid contract to a private company for laughable reasons which could be either stupid or corrupt, your choice". At least if those aren't the people who are getting no-bid contracts, those people mean exactly that.

> Making the CDC look bad appears to have been part of that program last year

You sound like somebody outside CDC on purpose went and made CDC look bad. As far as I can see here, CDC did it to itself - and it's way not the only messup they had recently, they also totally bungled covid tests rollout. There seems to be serious trouble there, and if they think they will be excused because of the pandemic - they unfortunately may be right, but this only means the rot will continue.