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CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

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Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#271

Post by tyingq »

codpiece wrote: post #260
didibus wrote: post #13

I just don't understand these software deals, the price is so high. At 44 million, you can hire 146 engineers each paid 300k for a full year. Trust me, you need much less to build something like this, and there's no excuse for it to suck so bad. I'm also curious, anyone know where the development actually happened? Did Deloitte further subcontracted out? Was it outsourced?

I noticed a Salesforce blue cloud favicon when I interacted with the system.

Yep...

"The vaccine management solution is a mobile-ready application that is built on our existing GovConnect Salesforce platform."

https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/pages/public-sector/solution...

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#272

Post by whynotminot »

eckza wrote: post #263
nataz wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This guy gets it. Development is literally the simplest part of the problem set. The intersection of domain expertise, contracting/procurement creativity, and technical evaluation is the tough part to wrangle. Getting to the point where development can start is 95% of the battle in my experience. Not to trivialize the actual development portion of the project, but most missteps happen early, dooming projects before a…

> Development is literally the simplest part of the problem set. This is the single most important and insightful sentence that a lot of HN-ers are going to read today, and they don't even know it.

This guy governments.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#273

Post by abhgh »

mdorazio wrote: post #52
didibus wrote: post #13

I just don't understand these software deals, the price is so high. At 44 million, you can hire 146 engineers each paid 300k for a full year. Trust me, you need much less to build something like this, and there's no excuse for it to suck so bad. I'm also curious, anyone know where the development actually happened? Did Deloitte further subcontracted out? Was it outsourced?

These contracts are generally bloated, but if you've never seen how a $10M+ contract for things like this works you're probably thinking about it wrong. The actual development piece is a pretty small portion of the overall work. The bulk of it is figuring out all the requirements, wrangling legacy systems and data into some kind of shape that can either be interfaced with or imported, documentation, support (includin…

For many corporate client system developments this is my experience too. Producing the actual LOCs is not the primary cost; it's requirement gathering, figuring out how to plug in the new component into an existing system etc. As an example of the first, you might be digitizing a cross-department workflow. Your job now basically becomes to interview stakeholders from each dept and have them commit to a single online workflow. An example of the second is you might want postgre for your backend, but the client might want a single stop db on whatever they're using today.

Then there are challenges around integrating with existing APIs, workflows etc.

Let's not forget feature creep. Sometimes the client might not be able to visualize the final UX in its entirety (often simply because multiple people are involved),and therefore, they might only begin realizing its impact as and when parts of the new system becomes available.

Essentially, you are not paid to build an isolated system, but to understand well and play nicely with the larger context - human and technological - within which your system must live.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#274

Post by mherrmann »

I just experienced something similar with Accenture. They were hired by the state of Bavaria in Germany to build an appointment management system for Covid vaccines. They didn't get it done in time and then it sucked so badly that the doctors didn't want to use it.

They now use my tiny little business's [1] solution instead. I've been on the market since 2014 and they found me through my web site. They called on a Friday "we need the system on Monday". Signed the contract in the evening, set everything up over the weekend, and now they're loving it. Sometimes, I think these big organizations are just so overloaded with bureaucracy and politics that a little guy like me can compete on pure product quality.

[1]: https://www.indiehackers.com/interview/terminerinnerung-56e9...

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#275

Post by j45 »

afavour wrote: post #228
j45 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can expand on the Steve Jobs reference. Apple is about creating usable technology for the masses, not the few. Apple also simplified access to legacy systems, like buying music and making it digital. Or maybe using your watch or phone to pay. IPhone is geared for ease of use for anyone to adopt, including folks who arent super tech saavy.. Apple's innovation is charging a premium to create beginners in tech adoptio…

As someone that’s been using Apple products for a few decades I don’t think I can agree that they make “for the masses, not the few”. Their market share figures would show that if that’s their aim then they are failing. IMO Apple makes premium products for a specific kind of customer and have little regard for issues like backwards compatibility. Which is absolutely fine. But probably not a model you’d want the gover…

When thinking of Apple, I wonder..

Was the Apple II for beginners? School children?

Was the original Macintosh easier for beginners to use than other computers?

Was the Apple Quicktime Pro one of the first digital cameras that anyone could relatively pick up and start using?

Was the iPod the first digital music player that just worked to buy and download music from end to end?

Was iPhone.. despite arriving as a smartphone a decade after Palm, etc, was the first usable smartphone for the masses?

Was iPad the first tablet that also just worked? Seems like anyone who can't use a laptop can use their finger on an iPad.

How about that AppleTV? Can anyone use it? It's easier than my AndroidTV.

What about that Apple watch, how many people who were new to wearables had it as their first? Seems popular with the masses.

Experts are usually the few, not the masses.

There's no doubt apple charges a premium. Their devices on average last 4-6 years, longer than the Android I'm typing this on.

Rather than being first, they do try to get it right for the masses. I'm not a happy Apple user, or fan with the keyboard fiasco. Apple's history though remains what it is.. easier to adopt by beginners.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#276

Post by eaton »

eckza wrote: post #263
nataz wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This guy gets it. Development is literally the simplest part of the problem set. The intersection of domain expertise, contracting/procurement creativity, and technical evaluation is the tough part to wrangle. Getting to the point where development can start is 95% of the battle in my experience. Not to trivialize the actual development portion of the project, but most missteps happen early, dooming projects before a…

> Development is literally the simplest part of the problem set. This is the single most important and insightful sentence that a lot of HN-ers are going to read today, and they don't even know it.

I'd never in a million years argue that Deloitte did an awesome job on a large government contract, but it's mind-boggling to watch the regular ritual of HN posters blithely insist that anything more over $20K and a pile of pizzas for government infrastructure is a scam.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#277

Post by eigenvector »

nataz wrote: post #226
mdorazio wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These contracts are generally bloated, but if you've never seen how a $10M+ contract for things like this works you're probably thinking about it wrong. The actual development piece is a pretty small portion of the overall work. The bulk of it is figuring out all the requirements, wrangling legacy systems and data into some kind of shape that can either be interfaced with or imported, documentation, support (includin…

This guy gets it. Development is literally the simplest part of the problem set. The intersection of domain expertise, contracting/procurement creativity, and technical evaluation is the tough part to wrangle. Getting to the point where development can start is 95% of the battle in my experience. Not to trivialize the actual development portion of the project, but most missteps happen early, dooming projects before a…

Now think of the problem in reverse, from the government's side. Why are they contracting it out when all of the most difficult aspects involve integrating with government systems, policies and personnel - things that government already knows how to do?

"Because we don't have the expertise to do software development."

The comments in this thread, which I fully agree with by the way, just cement my belief that if government wants to deliver high-quality IT projects they need to start developing the expertise to do it in-house.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#278

Post by brundolf »

dopylitty wrote: post #249
offtop5 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For various reasons this wouldn't work, you have the various bands of government salary https://federalnewsnetwork.com/pay/2020/01/more-top-career-e... >But for a GS-15, step 10 in Washington, his or her salary should total roughly $185,509 in 2020. But due to the federal pay ceiling, that same GS-15, step 10 in Washington will make the limit of $170,800 this year. And that's the absolute Max, after you go to the tro…

As someone with a degree in software "engineering" and more than a decade of experience in the industry I'd gladly take a stable government job creating or maintaining important applications that help the government provide high quality and necessary services to people. I would take pride in working on such a system as a vaccine administration management platform. Instead those jobs are doled out to contracting firms…

Exactly! That feeling of improving society would go a long way toward balancing out the pain of working on legacy systems

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#279

Post by [deleted] »

rob74 wrote: post #264
j45 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to support any ageism and would be happy to withdraw my age reference. What that may leave is decision makers who don't always have a high enough level of digital or technical literacy. Folks who are not competent in technology decisions and implementations being in positions of decision making and spending is the point I was trying to make.

Ever heard of the Peter principle ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle ) ?

[deleted]

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#280

Post by tzs »

hntrader wrote: post #33
didibus wrote: post #13

I just don't understand these software deals, the price is so high. At 44 million, you can hire 146 engineers each paid 300k for a full year. Trust me, you need much less to build something like this, and there's no excuse for it to suck so bad. I'm also curious, anyone know where the development actually happened? Did Deloitte further subcontracted out? Was it outsourced?

The Obamacare website cost $2 billion according to a Bloomberg piece in 2014. Don't ask me how that's even possible.

My recollection of prior HN discussions is that a large part of it was that it involved interfacing to systems in a large number of agencies or departments. Most of those systems were old systems, independently developed systems, that had not been designed to have APIs for other agencies to use (or had not been designed to have APIs at all).

I think it might also have had to interface to state systems in the states that were not running their own ACA exchanges, and to the systems of numerous insurance companies.

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