Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook • Hacker News Board

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#201

Post by cccc4all » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 7:40 PM UTC

betterunix2 wrote: post #180

Nextgrid wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that Facebook, Google and plenty of tech companies created this insurrection (damaging countless lives and relationships in the process), earned billions off it and are now claiming the moral high ground? Screw them. In this case, Parler doesn't sound that bad. At least Parler doesn't have billions of literal blood money and doesn't attempt to get into my life like Facebook does. If Parler should be held…

That is the equivalent of saying that someone with HIV created HIV -- after all, it was their body that kept producing more virus particles! QAnon and other BS is a virus that exploits the way platforms determine recommendations and whatnot. The insurrection was not created by Facebook; at most you can only say that Facebook should have been more aggressively policing extremists on their platform (and in fact they ha…

What makes you say "both sides" argument is getting tiresome. What will you do to the other side?

What is making you to take one side and against the other side?

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#202

Post by Pfhreak » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 7:40 PM UTC

loveistheanswer wrote: post #196

Pfhreak wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Additionally, it's important to recognize that "peaceful" does not mean the same thing as "non-violent". The protests were not necessarily peaceful -- they intended to be disruptive -- but they were explicitly non-violent.

>"peaceful" does not mean the same thing as "non-violent". The protests were not necessarily peaceful -- they intended to be disruptive peaceful: 1. free from disturbance; tranquil. 2. not involving war or violence.

Yes, thank you for agreeing. There are two different definitions, and the first (free from disturbance) is the one used in this context. The protests aimed to be non peaceful (eg, causing disturbance) and non violent.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#203

Post by edbob » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 7:43 PM UTC

BoorishBears wrote: post #170

at_a_remove wrote: post #92

I recently found out that on May 30th, there were numerous Secret Service members injured in a BLM/antifa attack (oh, scratch that, "peaceful protest") on the White House. I briefly wondered why I hadn't heard about that, then I chuckled at my own naivete. Of course, one might ask how that was coordinated, but then it was a peaceful protest, so who cares?

I don't know where you've been living that you didn't hear about the night Trump went into a bunmer. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/secret-service-took-trump-t... https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/george-floyd-protests-05-31... https://www.secretservice.gov/newsroom/releases/2020/05/secr... You'll notice some very interesting words there in the Secret Service write up: > No individuals crossed the White House Fence…

From your own source:

> Numerous Secret Service agents were injured, fires set by rioters blazed near the White House and authorities were searching for car bombs

> The official initially put the number of agents injured at over 50, but that may have referred to the weekend toll; the Secret Service has since said the number injured on Sunday was 14.

50 people injured is a serious attack. It's interesting that leftists are allowed to continue their violent attacks for days, weeks, or months while right-wing movements are immediately suppressed. Yet we're supposed to be afraid of right-wing violence. Right.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#204

Post by ryandrake » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 7:43 PM UTC

pageandrew wrote: post #164

ryandrake wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a great question for these app stores. How much nazi content and calls to violently overthrow the government is too much to be allowed on the app store? Kind of like asking the FDA how much arsenic should be allowed in my Cheerios. I’d like to see what their idea of the right threshold is.

Is the implication that one instance of objectionable content is enough to warrant deplatforming of the site? That seems like a really easy way for one competitor to take out another.

Not trying to imply anything. The threshold could be non-zero. The FDA notably has a non-zero threshold for things like allowed rat droppings and hair, insect parts, etc. [1] in your food, since no scalable process is perfect. I’m curious to know exactly how many or what percentage Nazi posts are OK for an app in the App Store.

1: https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/04/health/insect-rodent-filth-in...

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#205

Post by loveistheanswer » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 7:44 PM UTC

Pfhreak wrote: post #195

loveistheanswer wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about CHAZ/CHOP? -Armed protestors took over government buildings and city blocks -Promoted/condoned/excused by government officials -Lots of violence and murder

Which government buildings? The police just left the east precinct... And who were the armed protestors, what were they armed with? In my experience it was umbrellas and loud voices. And keep in mind that the SPD did considerably more violence to a larger group over that time.

>Which government buildings? The police just left the east precinct

Isn't the east precinct a government building?

>And who were the armed protestors, what were they armed with?

Raz the Warlord of CHAZ giving out assault rifles:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/raz-simone-guns/

>And keep in mind that the SPD did considerably more violence to a larger group over that time.

How many people were shot within the protest zone by occupants of CHAZ versus police over that time? By my count, it seems 5:0

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Autonomous_Zone...

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#206

Post by mikem170 » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 7:44 PM UTC

standardUser wrote: post #72

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure public support for removing Facebook from app stores wouldn't be too different than Parler. If we are principled people, and FB is failing to moderate, then any reasonable person who supported Parler's removal would support Facebook's. What would be different between the two decisions is the sheer magnitude of money on the line, in the case of Facebook's removal -- in capital markets, in employment, etc.

"If we are principled people, and FB is failing to moderate, then any reasonable person who supported Parler's removal would support Facebook's." Is Facebook failing to moderate, or failing at moderation? If the standard is perfect moderation, there is no social media. If the standard is a good faith efforts at moderation, Facebook should be tolerated (if not compelled to do better) and Parler should be punished (unl…

My two cents: Facebook has an algorithm they use to decide what posts are presented to a user. They should therefore loose their section 230 common carrier status. They are the ones deciding to put toxic and divisive information in front of users to drive engagement, instead of simply sharing posts in chronological order and letting users control all the filtering.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#207

Post by dylan-m » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 7:44 PM UTC

trident5000 wrote: post #148

dylan-m wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- The BLM movement is, while poorly framed and easily co-opted by other people, about genuine problems with policing in the United States. Problems that are backed up with verifiable facts rather than scummy used car salesmen and the Inventor of Email™. - The BLM movement, while the source of many large large scale protests (several of which turned into riots and outstayed their welcome) never, at any point, even pre…

What are the verifiable facts again? Do you have alternative statistics because they're actually on the FBI website and contradict everything you're saying. The riots were most likely political AstroTurf before an election via amplification of convenient (and unfortunate/terrible) imagery to turn out voters. I hate to be stone cold but that's my understanding of what unfolded. We witnessed something similar in 2015.

I should add a caveat around "the BLM movement is about." One of its problems (like many progressive movements) is everyone has a different idea what it is about, and the mainstream media does not help with that in the slightest.

So, the original idea there is police in the United States are killing black people for stupid reasons, which is true. There are no statistics to worry about for that one and there don't need to be: just look at a handful of publicized cases and be angry.

But of course, people do like statistics. You can't be angry without statistics. (Truly, you shouldn't. It's unhealthy). Also, that framework makes a terrible export. (Which is unfortunate because Canada loves importing protests from the States instead of making its own).

So, various other progressive movements globbed on to the name, as they do, but fortunately it's a more visceral thing than, say, Occupy Wall Street, so they are at least mostly on topic. I think the real problem, which is the source of most of the recent anger (see the equally badly named and easily co-opted slogan "Defund the police"), is that police are killing a lot of people for stupid reasons.

It is still important to emphasize that black lives matter, because they do, and it's infuriating that that makes people uncomfortable. But the root cause is the United States has an unreasonable approach to policing in general, which creates as many problems as it solves. And I think if you talk to most BLM supporters, they aren't going to tell you about racial sensitivity training or hiring more black cops: they're going to tell you how the police in a developed country shouldn't act as if they're expecting a war.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#208

Post by tessierashpool » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 7:47 PM UTC

Red_Tarsius wrote: post #112

>The Capitol Attack Where was this rhetoric when Antifa and BLM burned and looted for months with the blessings of all corporations and the mainstream media? Surely the Capitol Hill has an insurance policy? Or does that moronic point only apply to the common folk? Susan Rosenberg literally bombed the Capitol in 1983 and now serves as vice chair of the board of directors of Thousand Currents, a " non-profit foundation…

Where was this rhetoric when Antifa and BLM burned and looted for months with the blessings of all corporations and the mainstream media?

This is incendiary and false.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#209

Post by beaner » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 7:47 PM UTC

andrewvc wrote: post #131

beaner wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is CNN, a broadcast television network, considered a broadcast medium for attacks and terrorism for promoting and defending violent riots, and for giving reach to similar statements of support and justification from congress members such as AOC and Nancy Pelosi?

The idea that this summers riots were at all comparable to an attack on our nation's legislative body as it certified results of an election is repugnant and absurd. Its easier to point fingers at the other side than take any blame for your own. The insurrection at the nations capitol is a singular event, one that Republicans need to reckon with on its own terms. Some have done this, and I applaud them. They are prov…

What makes you think I'm on a side? I see hypocrisy all around. I think the capitol protests should not have happened, and the people who participated in them should be held accountable.

I agree with you that the capitol riots and the summer riots are incomparable. The summer riots were much worse, lasted longer, targeted innocents rather than political institutions, were widely excused and often promulgated by the newsmedia and politicians, are still talked about as if they were just, continually avoid criticism by cowardly saying that such points are a "distraction" in the face of things like the capitol riots, and use dishonest sleights of hand like the changing of language from "riot" to "attack" to gaslight.

Re: Capitol Attack Was Months in the Making on Facebook

#210

Post by mikem170 » Tue, Jan 19, 2021, 7:50 PM UTC

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #57

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure public support for removing Facebook from app stores wouldn't be too different than Parler. If we are principled people, and FB is failing to moderate, then any reasonable person who supported Parler's removal would support Facebook's. What would be different between the two decisions is the sheer magnitude of money on the line, in the case of Facebook's removal -- in capital markets, in employment, etc.

Parler explicitly advertises itself as a place of little or no moderation. Facebook has something like 15,000 professional content moderators whose job is so terrible that they literally get PTSD, but Facebook still fails to catch a lot of it. Being not great at moderation and actively advertising yourself as an unmoderated forum are fairly different lines.

But facebook doesn't just moderate. They control algorithms that decide what posts are presented to users. I think they should loose their common carrier status because of that editorial control. It's like if the phone company prioritized evil phone calls and delayed non-evil phone calls, it is a horrible influence on the conversations they are supposedly not involved in.