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NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

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Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#131

Post by morsch »

cturner wrote: post #103
thefounder wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

I find the idea of a European army to be the stuff of fantasy. The reason Europe is so dependent on the US is because European NATO members have for decades chosen not to honour their spending and capability obligations to that treaty. Certainly this includes Denmark. A quick google suggests this rich nation is spending 1.3% instead of the 2% minimum. Meanwhile, Russia, a less prosperous nation with a history of musc…

I'll vote to increase our defense spending to 2% once the US decreases its to 2%.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#132

Post by goatinaboat »

blackrock wrote: post #77
SirHound wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would that be a problem? It’s our job merely to make that difficult (ie not using Chinese equipment in your new 5G network)

Plot twist: Huawei hardware is more secure than American hardware. We all know that Cisco equipment has already been compromised by the NSA. And that all the major American tech companies are in collusion with the federal government. What we don’t know yet, is how secure Chinese built hardware and software is.

We all know that Cisco equipment has already been compromised by the NSA.

Given where it is manufactured it’s reasonable to assume Cisco kit is compromised by both US and China. Whereas Huawei is only compromised by China.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#133

Post by blackflame7000 »

goatinaboat wrote: post #125
throwaway4good wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. France alone probably has sufficient military power to balance Russia. European countries can stand up to what is obviously unacceptable (industrial espionage conducted by US military intelligence). But Denmark in the later years have chosen not to.

France alone probably has sufficient military power to balance Russia. It depends on the theatre. At sea, probably, in a nuclear exchange France has sufficient deterrent capability. But in a land war, tank on tank the way God meant it to be, France’s 200 tanks are no match for Russia’s thousands. Remember purchasing power parity. Russia may be poorer than France, but it’s stuff costs a lot less too.

The A-10 (or equivalent) is highly effective against tanks so it would probably come down to air superiority which the Russians would probably win easily against anyone not (china or US)

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#134

Post by blackflame7000 »

thefounder wrote: post #121
coldtea wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. It's amazing how this Cold War old-wives-tale is still what Americans believe... Russia is not USSR - a superpower with half of Europe under its wings -, and is not a threat to…

Well Russia already anexed Crimea and is fighting a proxy war in Ukraine. You may not find Ukraine enough European for you to count. Next: other Eastern European countries. Next: the baltic countries.

They’d still have a long ways to go to even get back what they had as the USSR. Russia isn’t the soviet union but in time they could be or they could be a US Ally someday. Imagine a world where the US and Russia were on great terms... China would be very unhappy with that.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#135

Post by mola »

Atlantium wrote: post #78
grey-area wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nations should spy on enemies, not friends, lest they find themselves without friends. Also spies should not be used for the benefit of corporations (in this case arms dealers) under cover of ‘national security’.

No nation is friends with another nation. Nations are allies. Ally : a state formally cooperating with another for a military or other purpose. Friend : a person whom one knows and with whom one has a bond of mutual affection, typically exclusive of sexual or family relations. Allies work together for rational mutual purposes, friends work together for emotional reasons. Besides, humans of all nations have far too ma…

Friendship rhetorics between EU and US is not rare, it's the norm. Nations can be friendly.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#136

Post by mola »

skwb wrote: post #71
ARandomerDude wrote: post #26

Would we expect them not to? "An important developed nation is picking a new fighter. Let's know nothing until it's over with." is hardly good stewardship of your own nation's trust and resources. It's the NSA's job to monitor who is friends with whom so policy makers can make policy. That's not to say the NSA should do anything they can. But it is their proper job to spy on non-Americans for America.

I tend to agree with this sentiment. Lets take the Turkey case for example. For all intents and purposes, they are a close NATO ally since the Cold War. They were part of the F-35 program, where the specific electronic and radar profile are paramount to the tactical advantage of the weapon system. But Turkey decided they wanted to buy into the Russian S400 antiair system as well (given that their alternatives like Pa…

It's the latter.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#137

Post by Jarolis »

throwaway56034 wrote: post #123
rich_sasha wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia is not USSR - a superpower with half of Europe under its wings -, and is not a threat to anyone Not by choice, Russians still think the collapse of USSR a tragic mistake, and Putin’s rhetoric ties directly back to it. Russian “defence” spending is skyrocketing, Russia is holding frequent manoeuvres righ in NATO borders, keeps flying bombers ever-so-slightly into NATO country airspace’s... and most of all, Ru…

Russian “defence” spending is skyrocketing, This is wrong, it barely keeps up with inflation: https://www.sipri.org/commentary/topical-backgrounder/2020/r... This is a whopping 9% of the yearly defense spending of the US.

The US is irrelevant for European defense though. They're no longer a reliable partner and nobody seriously believes we can rely on them if anything does happen. So we're down to France and Germany, and I'm not sure Germany's military is particularly competent. The way I see it, Russia is far more efficient at defense spending than most of the EU countries, so they're a legitimate threat even if they "only" match France in spending.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#138

Post by cturner »

_lbaq wrote: post #113
cturner wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the idea of a European army to be the stuff of fantasy. The reason Europe is so dependent on the US is because European NATO members have for decades chosen not to honour their spending and capability obligations to that treaty. Certainly this includes Denmark. A quick google suggests this rich nation is spending 1.3% instead of the 2% minimum. Meanwhile, Russia, a less prosperous nation with a history of musc…

>Meanwhile, Russia, a developing nation with a history of muscular military engagements in the region, is spending more than six percent of its much larger GDB on military. The Russia GDP is less than 10% of the GDP of EU, or the same size as the Benelux (Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg) countries. Its population is shrinking rapidly due to low birth rates and very high death rates. Its ruled by a totalitaria…

Loosely I agree with commenters remarking that the Cold War is over. (Though not the disrespect for the Russian capability. That is a country that still knows how to fight a war.)

But if not for Russia, why does Europe need a military? To get strategic independence from the US? In that case, where is the money? Why the howling about Trump wanting to reduce the US contribution?

And how is the command going to work?

These are rhetorical questions. I think Merkel is insincere, and playing to a domestic audience.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#139

Post by elmo2you »

thefounder wrote: post #121
coldtea wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. It's amazing how this Cold War old-wives-tale is still what Americans believe... Russia is not USSR - a superpower with half of Europe under its wings -, and is not a threat to…

Well Russia already anexed Crimea and is fighting a proxy war in Ukraine. You may not find Ukraine enough European for you to count. Next: other Eastern European countries. Next: the baltic countries.

> Well Russia already annexed Crimea .. Yet another show of either (willful) ignorance or (intentional) peddling of (Western) propaganda.

People may think whatever they want about what happened to Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, but to called that an annexation (or an invasion, as many have) is disingenuous as best.

It's no secret (in fact, it's on public record) that it was the USA who pumped copious amounts of money in getting a "favorable" group of very questionable "politicians" in power in Kiev. While presented as "spreading democracy and freedom", in the backdrop Western companies (with strong government ties) were making deals to take control of the natural resources in both Crimea and Eastern Ukraine.

Most importantly, those deals envisioned to take away the control (or even access) Russia (and the local population, for that matter) have/had over these resources. If anyone annexed anything, it was rather the USA than Russia. The key on all that is to observe which side was the one taking all the initiatives, and which side was basically just responding to what the other side did.

This fear mongering about Russian expansion simply doesn't match reality. If anyone has been expanding the last decade or so, it is NATO, not Russia. In reality, it probably should not surprise anyone. It's a well proven tactic to simply accuse your victims of being the one showing aggression, while in reality that is just resistance to your own (illegal) aggression. Just ask some of the older Poles. They still remember what Germany did.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#140

Post by goatinaboat »

blackflame7000 wrote: post #133
goatinaboat wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France alone probably has sufficient military power to balance Russia. It depends on the theatre. At sea, probably, in a nuclear exchange France has sufficient deterrent capability. But in a land war, tank on tank the way God meant it to be, France’s 200 tanks are no match for Russia’s thousands. Remember purchasing power parity. Russia may be poorer than France, but it’s stuff costs a lot less too.

The A-10 (or equivalent) is highly effective against tanks so it would probably come down to air superiority which the Russians would probably win easily against anyone not (china or US)

The A-10 (or equivalent) is highly effective against tanks

France has no A10s and S500 allows Russia to deny airspace to it anyway.

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