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NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

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Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#71

Would we expect them not to? "An important developed nation is picking a new fighter. Let's know nothing until it's over with." is hardly good stewardship of your own nation's trust and resources. It's the NSA's job to monitor who is friends with whom so policy makers can make policy. That's not to say the NSA should do anything they can. But it is their proper job to spy on non-Americans for America.

I tend to agree with this sentiment.

Lets take the Turkey case for example. For all intents and purposes, they are a close NATO ally since the Cold War. They were part of the F-35 program, where the specific electronic and radar profile are paramount to the tactical advantage of the weapon system. But Turkey decided they wanted to buy into the Russian S400 antiair system as well (given that their alternatives like Pariot is frankly quite lackluster).

Now lets put aside the potential of hidden Russian code providing telemetry back to the motherland about what is going on. Similar performance information about F-35 detections could easily be acquired through non technological means as well through human intelligence. The entire premise of the F-35 program is essentially that OpFor doens't really have great knowledge in the radar profile of what the F-35 looks like, meaning it could lead to an inefficient deployment of resources/unknown vulnerability in radar coverage.

So much of modern air war doctrine is premised on this notion, that the concern of what nation buys into what system creates systemic risk. If it's a narrow program that is intended to understand potential risk, I think it is easily justified. If it is to try to win contracts for American companies for a profit in a form of state sponsored industrial espionage a la China, I am fully against.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#72
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article lays out the expectations (and law) of the Danes re hosting the NSA espionage center and ground rules about its non-use against Danish interests, which sound pretty modest.

For the Danes to trust spies requires willful naïveté, no? I wouldn't be surprised to hear key Danish politicians got bribed or blackmailed into being so credulous in the first place.

Willful naïveté can be a strategic move as well

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#73

Would we expect them not to? "An important developed nation is picking a new fighter. Let's know nothing until it's over with." is hardly good stewardship of your own nation's trust and resources. It's the NSA's job to monitor who is friends with whom so policy makers can make policy. That's not to say the NSA should do anything they can. But it is their proper job to spy on non-Americans for America.

So what you are saying, is that spying is ok. Got it. So you don’t mind if other countries spy on America, right?

Why would that be a problem? It’s our job merely to make that difficult (ie not using Chinese equipment in your new 5G network)

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#74

Would we expect them not to? "An important developed nation is picking a new fighter. Let's know nothing until it's over with." is hardly good stewardship of your own nation's trust and resources. It's the NSA's job to monitor who is friends with whom so policy makers can make policy. That's not to say the NSA should do anything they can. But it is their proper job to spy on non-Americans for America.

Nations should spy on enemies, not friends, lest they find themselves without friends. Also spies should not be used for the benefit of corporations (in this case arms dealers) under cover of ‘national security’.

> Nations should spy on enemies, not friends, lest they find themselves without friends.

Nations should spy on friends as well, lest they find out too late that who those whom they thought were their friends were actually working with their enemies against them.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#75
Note that France – one of governments with commercial interests in the Airbus/Eurofighter consortium – doesn't have clean hands when it comes to spying on behalf of its domestic firms: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/france-spied-on-com...

While perversion of national-security spying for generic & narrow commercial gain is concerning, arms deals are a hybrid case. To the extent a case involves government-on-government spying, it's hard for me to get angry. I tend to see it as a rare horizontal form of transparency/accountability among entities that often have too few checks on their corruption & skulduggery.

Even between friendly governments, maybe friends that spy on each other achieve an even greater mutual trust - an assurance there's nothing being planned internally that conflicts with the claims made via official channels.

"If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear" is a shitty principle when hypocritically deployed by the powerful against private people.

But doesn't it kind of make sense when applied to governments? What right-to-privacy, exactly, does a government have against its citizens or allies?

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#76

Would we expect them not to? "An important developed nation is picking a new fighter. Let's know nothing until it's over with." is hardly good stewardship of your own nation's trust and resources. It's the NSA's job to monitor who is friends with whom so policy makers can make policy. That's not to say the NSA should do anything they can. But it is their proper job to spy on non-Americans for America.

Fuck you.. literally fuck you..

We have entered into illegal wars for you guys, followed you in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libiya, danish soldiers have died, and gotten ptsd in the wars you started, handed over Pows in good faith, that then were tortured. And this is how you feel?.. that naturally the US should be spying on us.. fuck you!

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what you are saying, is that spying is ok. Got it. So you don’t mind if other countries spy on America, right?

Why would that be a problem? It’s our job merely to make that difficult (ie not using Chinese equipment in your new 5G network)

Plot twist: Huawei hardware is more secure than American hardware.

We all know that Cisco equipment has already been compromised by the NSA. And that all the major American tech companies are in collusion with the federal government.

What we don’t know yet, is how secure Chinese built hardware and software is.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#78

Would we expect them not to? "An important developed nation is picking a new fighter. Let's know nothing until it's over with." is hardly good stewardship of your own nation's trust and resources. It's the NSA's job to monitor who is friends with whom so policy makers can make policy. That's not to say the NSA should do anything they can. But it is their proper job to spy on non-Americans for America.

Nations should spy on enemies, not friends, lest they find themselves without friends. Also spies should not be used for the benefit of corporations (in this case arms dealers) under cover of ‘national security’.

No nation is friends with another nation. Nations are allies.

Ally : a state formally cooperating with another for a military or other purpose.

Friend : a person whom one knows and with whom one has a bond of mutual affection, typically exclusive of sexual or family relations.

Allies work together for rational mutual purposes, friends work together for emotional reasons.

Besides, humans of all nations have far too many factions and unreasonable emotional responses to ever be fully trusted.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#79

Would we expect them not to? "An important developed nation is picking a new fighter. Let's know nothing until it's over with." is hardly good stewardship of your own nation's trust and resources. It's the NSA's job to monitor who is friends with whom so policy makers can make policy. That's not to say the NSA should do anything they can. But it is their proper job to spy on non-Americans for America.

Fuck you.. literally fuck you.. We have entered into illegal wars for you guys, followed you in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libiya, danish soldiers have died, and gotten ptsd in the wars you started, handed over Pows in good faith, that then were tortured. And this is how you feel?.. that naturally the US should be spying on us.. fuck you!

I fought on the ground in Afghanistan. I know what it's like to fear dying, see friends blown apart, and expect not to see my family again. Believe it or not that's exactly why I think "trust then verify" is a good policy when handing over such a sophisticated weapon. Too many lives are at stake, on all sides, not to.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#80
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world will have a master. The question is, who do you want the master to be? Your choices are America, China, or Russia. That's it. You may not like it, but you can't do anything about it, and denying it and raising a fuss about it is childish naivety, not at its finest, but at its absolute worst.

> Your choices are America, China, or Russia. That's it. Don't sleep on the EU. They are largest economic/political entity in the world. Not america, not china, not russia. The EU represents the world's largest market, has a larger population than the US, larger defense budget than china, currency that could possibly replace the dollar one day and a legacy/network of former colonial possessions all over the world.

The problem for EU is they haven't forged a nation like what US or India has done in spite of their cultural diversity. They're still essential squabbling little countries. How horrifically the south European countries were treated during the financial crisis instead of the EU pulling together just demonstrates how bad the situation is. Unless it federalizes, it will have little or no political impact.
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